Topic: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!

[Franky]

I love that you guys are helping out Koonendez so much - even to the point of telling him how to unscrew the throttle cables :-)

You rock!

[Stev-o]

I'd buy a brand old tank.

Don't you have one like his to sell?

I do have a 550 tank with original paint but it needs PDR before going up for sale.

[Maurice]

Soldering would be best. I have had luck with POR-15 inside the tank to seal a pinhole. Acid for de-rusting is a PITA as it flash rusts almost immediately, the gift that keeps on giving...

[Koonendez]

Update: Came out this morning and immediately removed the E&P. Rinsed inside of the tank with hot water and baking soda. Rinsed the tank with Acetone and fogged the tank with WD-40. Inspected the leak and found the hole. It is literally the size of a pin hole. Tried soldering it but having some trouble getting a good seal. For now it's plugged up enough to keep air out but definitely not a permanent fix. Good for now while I work on carbs.



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[Bankerdanny]

A competent radiator shop should be able to solder up a pinhole for you.

[billingstitan]

I've got an old cb550 tank with the same paint that had pinholes that I used a combo of caswell's dragon red epoxy and sealing putty to seal up until I got the rest of my bike straight. Opinions vary on sealant, but I've had great luck both times I used it (with very careful attention to prep).  It's been several years and still in good shape (see pic).

That kept me going for a year or so until I could find a good used tank for reasonable that was worth painting. Those can be tough to find at a decent price. I managed one for under $100 though. Used a rattle can and aftermarket decals and IMHO it came out amazing (see pic - tank's a bit dusty, but you can get the idea) - you can get good paint here: http://www.repaintsupply.com/pd_2_part_2k_aerosol.cfm

I've also got a spare 550 tank (see pic) that I got in my searches for a solid tank that ended up having some bondo on it after I got all the paint stripped :-(  But it's in good shape w/ no internal rust. I'd let either of those tanks go cheap if you need one. PM me if you're interested.

That said, you could prob do just as well getting some sealant and putty since you've already gone through the effort to strip and etch the interior. Caswell's is the only one I've ever tried -

[calj737]

+2 on Caswell to seal up pinholes. Proper preparation and installation, and perfect results.

[Koonendez]

Thanks guys. Just curious about the Caswell Sealer...Will the epoxy stick and work properly even with some minor flash rust already existing in the tank or do I need to completely remove all rust before sealing?

[calj737]

Do a decent soak/rinse with acetone before installing Caswell. Be certain to follow their installation procedures very closely to guarantee results.

[Koonendez]

Awesome. I'm going to listen to TT and insect the tank when I get some time tomorrow morning and try to remove the in tank filter first and foremost. I have no idea how in the world to remove anything out of that little hole but will do a search in the forums to see what people have used to get it out. I imagine pliers will not be the only tool I need.

Then I'm going to check the inside of the tank to see if my treatment did anything to remove the rust inside. Think I'm going to go the route of Caswell sealer inside as the last step just for future preventive issues with rust. I live in Chicago so humidity and dry cold pretty much plagues us all year round.


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[Koonendez]

One thing I want to mention before I start tearing down these carbs are any weird tools I'll need that will help me with the rebuild. I've got a short list so far including...

Sewing needle to push out emulsion tube
Feeler gauge to bench sync
Small magnet for screws inside sleeve
Float level tool (suggestion for best one to use??? I don't have this yet)
Chem Dip from Berrymans
Pine sol to soak bodies

Other then the float tool which I need to order ASAP is there anything else I'm missing? And which float tool have worked best for you guys in the past?


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[billingstitan]

Caswell's is designed to work with some rust in the tank (obviously not flaking-type rust - flash rust is fine and so is pitting). The biggest thing is to ensure your tank has been thoroughly cleaned and is dry as a bone.

+1 on the acetone - that's what I used as the final rinse after scrubbing my tank with nuts and bolts (put those on a loop of wire or coat hanger, as they can be tough to get out - ask me how I know).

When finished with the acetone wash, set it in the sun and stick a heat gun or blow dryer in the fuel opening and run it at the LOWEST, setting for about an hour until it's perfectly dry (hair dryer's worth of heat AT MOST - even cool works, just need some air circulating through the tank to speed evap) .

Once you're positive it's dry - set it out again in the sun for the afternoon just to be sure. You do not want ANY moisture in that tank before you apply the caswell's.

Prep is where most people fail with the caswells. I used the hardening putty underneath the holes for insurance, although I'm not sure that was even necessary. You can pick that up from Caswell's as well, or at any autoparts store. It's a two-part putty. Just knead the two putties together and press it under those pinholes - you can paint right over it after it cures (apply AFTER you've applied the tank sealant and it's cured).

I do have a caswell's kit that I'm selling - I had planned on sealing the tank I painted, but ended up getting one with zero rust so did not need to use it. Those tank sealers are an awesome resource when you're in a pinch with a rusty tank or one with pinholes - but I would not ever recommend anyone use them on a tank that doesn't have rust as the prep is a b**tch and if they do fail it's a nightmare. Anyway, I will make you a deal on that caswell's kit I have if you're interested (PM me if so), or just go to caswell's and order the dragon red kit - they run about $55+shipping last time checked.

I've used both the regular and the dragon red - I found the red dye was very helpful so you can see the liner with a flashlight as you apply it to the inside of the tank -- it's thick like the consistency of honey when mixed, and you have to do a lot of spinning and turning of your tank to ensure the inside is totally coated.

Basically wrap your tank in saran-wrap, use some duct tape over that near the fuel hole and bung hole - and also cover the pin holes with duct tape -- you apply the patching putty (if you choose) AFTER the Caswell's. When your prep is done, mix up the epoxy - and once it's applied to the tank, it's a good idea to clean that old fuel filter real well, and then use that to poke through the petcock hole if needed to ensure the caswells doesn't plug that hole (don't leave it in there - just use it to clean out the hole if needed). I just used a black rubber cork in the petcock hole and let the caswell's set, then pulled it out and there were no issues with plugging.

I've had nothing but success using it - but I have heard of a few bad experiences with it - whether it was bad prep or not, I can't say. I did a TON of research before I did my tanks, and Caswell's stood out as the most reliable - but again, opinions definitely vary. I am partial to the two part epoxy concept. If you drip or splatter, clean immediately, because that stuff hardens and it's not coming off of any parts once it's set.

[TwoTired]

Sewing needle to push out emulsion tube

If you meant plastic tipped knitting needle, that will work.  But, a wooden dowel or nylon rod would work, also.  The end of the tube you will press upon is a jet orifice, which you do NOT want to distort.

Feeler gauge to bench sync

I'm not sure how that would work, most use a drill bit.  But, even that is fraught with possible problems, particularly with the 76 and earlier carbs.

Small magnet for screws inside sleeve

Handy tool yes and they have their place.  But not essential, or of much help when installing the screws.  Go to the stationary store and get some glue dots.  These are gummy stickys globs  that you can put on the end of a small dowel or the end of your cross head screw driver for both extraction and installation.
Just why do you need to remove the slides anyway?  Are they sticking to the slide bores?  You have a yen to dismantle in a quest for total domination over the machine?  You'd be better off learning what the bits do and go after the ones that are uncooperative, imo.

Float level tool (suggestion for best one to use??? I don't have this yet)

Cut one out of a plastic card.  Make legs that span the bowl landings, and cut out the center to the 22mm depth.  Or, just use a machinist's pocket scale.  See pic.

Chem Dip from Berrymans

Your call, if the carbs are really crusty gunky.  But, mostly not necessary and overkill.  The only reason to separate the carb from the tie plate is to replace the fuel tee seals, or paint/polish the carb bodies, imo.
You can clean all the essential bits needed to make them work well, with aerosol canned carb cleaner.  It's mostly the pilot system passages you need to "prove" will flow, anyway.  Reliance on a "soak" to get those pathways clean is a neophyte's mistaken assumption, imo.

Pine sol to soak bodies

EGADS no.  It has a pH of 2-3, acidic.  Battery acid is pH 1.5 or lower.   Yes mixing/diluting it with pH 7.0 water will lessen the acidity.  But, carb cleaners are purpose built for the carb cleaning task and will NOT harm the metal parts of the carb.
 Save the pine sol for the kitchen floor.  It was never intended to clean carbs and is only favored by the "cheapies" who found some in mom's cleaning cabinet.  Soak them long enough in this and they will etch metal off the carb bodies.  The slides are supposed to fit tightly in the bores.  Remove metal here and its like adding years of wear.

Other then the float tool which I need to order ASAP is there anything else I'm missing?

Yes.  The seal kits; one for each carb.  16010-323-315

[Koonendez]

Billingstitan: thanks for the info. Just sent pm about the kit

TT: thank you so much for all the help you've already posted for me. I have happily returned many products or unnecessary tools/chem already from the knowledge of the members on this forum and continue to appreciate all the advice.

I will use my take out chopsticks instead of a kitting needle. Will look again at what to do to sync the carbs instead of the feeler gauge method. I plan on installing stock airbox when putting carbs back on assuming I can find the rest of the parts needed before then. I was assuming I needed to break down the slides in the carbs to clean the slide needle? But if it's not necessary woo hoo! Less breaking down the better for me. All I have for reference on cleaning carbs so far is that video I posted and that guy doesn't seem to know what he's doing. Wish you had a full video on YouTube showing what you do step by step. The float level tool will be a challenge for me but will give it my best to make something using that picture you posted. Returning chem dip and will not go though the pine sol route. Thank you! Will order seal kits asap.


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[TwoTired]

Bench sync using light method:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=13937.msg12199#msg12199

You might need to remove the slides to push out the emulsion tubes.  You do not need to de-rack the carbs to do so.  In fact, you don't even "need" to remove the carbs from the bike.  (Though doing so may make understanding the carbs easier.  And, if corroded, gummy, or krusty, easier to clean.)

I don't think I've ever seen a dirty slide needle.  But, I haven't seen them all.  And, the only practical way to determine their clip position is to remove them, unfortunately.

The aerosol spray cleaner will be used to prove the pilot circuit passageways are clear.  There are 4 access points to the pilot circuit: 1 - the pilot jet, 2 - the air jet (at the carb airflow entrance), 3 - the pilot screw bore, 4 - the hole feeding into the carb throat bore.  The fluid is used to flush and "see" flow from each of the four ports to each of the others.

More as needed...

[MandEms]

This is a good thread.  Thanks for going through it, Koonendez.  You're doing well.

I especially like TwoTired's light method for bench synching.  Makes sense.

Carry on.

[lucky]

Thanks. I went to an auto parts store today but couldn't find a thin walled 18mm spark plug socket so I went to a Honda dealership and asked the parts department who told me they cannot order me any tools unless its for the use of the dealership.

Anyone know if Sears Auto centers will carry the parts needed? Also I am not familiar with that technique. Also, where can I find the spark plugs for these bikes? Would any auto parts store carry them? I will try and pull off carbs this Wednesday and get to dismantling them to the best of my ability. I assume I will need to remove the tank completely before I can pull carbs so I will empty the tank and look into a rust removal system and re-line the inside of the tank.

You really need to find someone in the area that has some Honda experience.
Japanese bikes.
The carbs if they have stock jets, will be running very lean.
The idle jets could be clogged and that is why it will not idle.
Also not having the choke on when it is cold on first start up of the day.
Sears cannot help you at all. Forget it.

[Koonendez]

Hey TT, is there a another photo of your Float Level Tool that I can see in its entirety? Also, the Parts number you gave me for the gasket set...is that from Partzilla? Cause someone else gave me a link to get a gasket set but the part numbers are slightly different from the numbers you posted in the thread earlier.

16010-323-305 - This is the Gasket Set part number from Partzilla

16010-323-315 - This is the parts number you posted...Different site?

Found a local motorcycle shop that is welding my tank's pinhole for me. I've also got some Metal Rescue being shipped to me and I will be de-rusting the inside and outside of the tank immediately after it arrives. Then paint the outside to prevent any more corrosion. Going to work on carbs for the time being. I'll keep you guys posted on what the jet sizes and the conditions of each carb once I get them going.

[TwoTired]

Hey TT, is there a another photo of your Float Level Tool that I can see in its entirety?

It's called a "Machinist pocket scale".  If you Google, you can find one for $1.75 online, or about $4 at sears.

Also, the Parts number you gave me for the gasket set...is that from Partzilla? Cause someone else gave me a link to get a gasket set but the part numbers are slightly different from the numbers you posted in the thread earlier.

16010-323-305 - This is the Gasket Set part number from Partzilla

16010-323-315 - This is the parts number you posted...Different site?

The number I gave is off the package.  I bought mine from Honda parts distribution.  If you search www.cmsnl.com using your 305 number it supercedes your number with the 315.

As far as I know the 315 suffix indicates a more recent number.  I would assume the 305 number is older stock.  I don't know what the package content difference is.   Possibly just a vendor change, or a materials composition change.

[Koonendez]

Awesome! Thanks for clarifying


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[Deltarider]

If you buy the gasket set, make sure you get the 16010-323-315 set and not the 16010-323-305. Honda made an error with the latter.

[Koonendez]

Question...when re-assembling carbs do I need to add any lubrication or grease on new gaskets and rubber bits? If so, what are you using?


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[seanbarney41]

Question...when re-assembling carbs do I need to add any lubrication or grease on new gaskets and rubber bits? If so, what are you using?


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a squirt of wd40 or silicon spray on o-rings is all that should be useful

[TwoTired]

Silicone for orings if needed to get them to slide into proper position.

The bowl gasket/oring is "glued" in with Gascacinch on the bowl side only.  Dry contact with flat on the carb body.

The top punched gasket I install dry.  It's mostly a dust block.

[Koonendez]

Thanks guys. Sorry but just want to clarify the bowl gasket/oring I should glue down but only glue one side?


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