Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 27122 times)

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Offline nccb

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2014, 04:29:55 am »
Srust is that a normal week or some thing unusual?
Christ! That sounds to me like a low grade war for the amount casualties generated I'm kind of curious how many were lost in Afghanistan that week not civilians but military personnel killed and wounded.
Bill the demon.

That's a low figure too.  There were some additional shootings of spouses and robberies not reported from NC that I know of. . .

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2014, 04:50:18 am »
You can't legitimately count the shooting of a spouse as part of a larger, social tragedy. Point I make is: most spouses probably deserved it  ;) I know mine does regularly...

NCCB - regarding Terry, we shall hold a seat on a jet liner for him. Don't want his arms too tired that he can't properly hoist back several.

On a more serious note, yes, those stats from srust are probably under-reported. The city of Chicago alone seems to rack up more gun deaths in a week than the whole of the continent. But as Terry said, it's a terrible dichotomy of law abiders versus nut jobs. If only we had a widely accepted method to screen out the loons, all our children would be far safer. I'm all for that!!! And I'm not just talking about the guns and violence, but the pedophiles, pushers, rapists and thugs that plague our society. The death penalty is too soft for these vermin.
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Offline nccb

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2014, 05:15:14 am »
didn't England send all their vagrants to Australia? 8)

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2014, 05:17:28 am »
How To Stop Mass Shootings?


Someone sent me this.....not going either way with it, I just watched  it .
You be the judge. AGAIN: I'm not going either way with this 8)

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2014, 05:32:55 am »
I read some where that the deaths for troops in Afghanistan since the start of the year was 32 not civvies but troops so that would make the country less dangerous than the states in some sense. So join up lads and lasses you're safer in a war zone.
Bill the demon.

Offline wardenerd

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2014, 06:12:44 am »
If I remember correctly the worst school killing in the U S was a fire set somewhere up north(Chicago?) 40 or more years ago.  Crazy is hard to stop and fire appears to be the weapon of choice after the guns are taken away.  The U S government is making getting concealed carry a little more difficult and certainly buying a gun where I live requires a permit to purchase or a concealed carry permit.  We in the U S have a healthy fear of what the government is really doing and what they have planned.  The problem here for the government is there are 300 million guns in the U S and ammunition is plentiful and stockpiled.  Taking that amount of firepower from citizens could prove to be quite violent and would require the Army to get involved if the surrender was forced at gun point.  I am sure the Army wants no part of killing citizens.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2014, 06:16:37 am »
Actually earlier than that, 1927:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Offline MCRider

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2014, 07:05:17 am »
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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2014, 07:39:41 am »
This is an interesting & sad topic. Despite the horror these events create, i'm of the opinion that it is not the gun that kills, but rather something much worse, which is the heart of man. The gun itself cannot shoot someone by itself, so the weapon is not to blame. Its the nutbag behind the trigger. That same nutbag, if you take the gun away from him, will use the next thing he can grab such as a knife, screwdriver, or other kitchen utensil, because he has it set in his heart what he wants to do.

Here is a reading from the Gospel from Mark 7 of what i'm talking about
-------
7:20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
-------

Assuming we are talking about sound minds here, I don't see a problem with hunting or having a shot at a rifle range for a bit of sport. Farmers and law enforcement need it at a minimum & various countries have their citizens armed to retain checks and balances as its constitution allows.

So if a man has 100 guns and they are all locked away, then no one gets hurt. I'm just taking a logical look at the problem at a fundamental level. A person set out with evil intents will find other ways if he cannot find a gun, because he is spiritually poisoned.

When basic morals break down in society (due to fundamental spiritual problems), then everything else crumbles. I'm convinced that the demons are having a field day in our times with daily headlines being what they are these days.

PS: DH, that was a good video.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 07:52:43 am by AJK »

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2014, 09:30:40 pm »
Srust is that a normal week or some thing unusual?
Christ! That sounds to me like a low grade war for the amount casualties generated I'm kind of curious how many were lost in Afghanistan that week not civilians but military personnel killed and wounded.
Bill the demon.

Gun related deaths run about 32,000+ a year so simple math says that week may have been higher than normal but does not take into account monthly variations or seasonal differences.  Of that number 1 in 3 is considered a homicide and 2 in 3 are from suicide.  Some folks doubted that stat when I had brought it up before but it is easy enough to check out.  So this idea that keeps getting floated out there that's it's just the inner city gangs/ bad guys/ etc is just so much bullsh!t.  It's just the bad guys or the nutjobs and everyone else who owns the guns are the good guys.  Except just about everyday we have another shooting by some guy who everyone says "just seemed like a normal guy, we all can't believe he would do something like that, he never even had a criminal record."  The incident I mentioned earlier about the planned school shooting here....it shocked everyone because the kid seemed so normal to everyone on the outside but you wonder about the family as the kid had seven guns in his bedroom...maybe just typical of the gun fetish crowd and they don't see anything unusual about it.  Then we had the retired cop who shot a guy in a movie theater in Florida a while back.  But I thought all these good guy law abiding citizens didn't do that kind of stuff.  So for every one who wants to arm themselves and play Dirty Harry...how do we know that you won't snap at some point...or more likely one of your kids.  But I guess that only happens to someone else.


My best friend is an avid hunter and owns around six or seven guns...I recently gave him my shotgun but it's all strictly traditional hunting guns.  My brother is also a hunter and owns many guns so I am no stranger to them.  Another friend has an indoor shooting range.  I have never been there, it's just not my thing but he recently stopped promoting his place at gun shows because the clientele he was getting from them was starting to freak him out.  And he has a permit to carry so that says something about the culture.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 10:35:47 pm by srust58 »

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2014, 03:41:24 am »
So this idea that keeps getting floated out there that's it's just the inner city gangs/ bad guys/ etc is just so much bullsh!t.  It's just the bad guys or the nutjobs and everyone else who owns the guns are the good guys.

Please carefully read what was written. Nobody said there weren't other incidences of gun violence, only that every day, every week these numbers far exceed the others. Yet no one seems to care about this epidemic.

Please do climb down off your pedestal and stop lecturing those who have different interests and let's try to constructively address the issue of the cause, not the results and statistics. Your posting of 2/3 of the deaths being from suicides is completely news to my ears. Are you saying that if guns didn't exist then suicides would stop? I find that absurd. Does the most recent lad in Santa Barbara count as a suicide since his death came as a result of self-inflicted gun violence? If so, then good. Chalk up tons more of the nut jobs taking their own lives so ewe don't spend a dime studying, putting them up in prison, psychiatric analysis and court room fees. Save the money and spend it on law enforcement to dissuade these evil doers from perpetrating their evil acts.
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2014, 04:11:55 am »
So if 1/3 of the gun deaths are homicides that goes to my point your country has become as or more dangerous than Afghanistan I could say many cutting things about that but I will only say that I wont go across the line any more and let's build that border fence along the northern border.
Bill the demon.

Offline dave500

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 12:57:14 pm »

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2014, 01:09:47 pm »
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Offline cj750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2014, 01:38:56 pm »
So if 1/3 of the gun deaths are homicides that goes to my point your country has become as or more dangerous than Afghanistan I could say many cutting things about that but I will only say that I wont go across the line any more and let's build that border fence along the northern border.
Bill the demon.

That 1/3 of the total gun deaths that are not suicides includes justifiable shootings by law enforcement, homeowners protecting themselves from intruders, etc. Of those that are left, the vast majority are gang bangers, drug dealers and other assorted criminals offing each other. Yes, there are a handful of crazies that use guns to commit random killings every year. (Which also happens in Germany, Norway and other countries with very strict gun laws, btw.) But your odds as a typical law-abiding citizen of becoming a victim of gun violence as you go about your daily business are miniscule. So no, its not like Afghanistan down here.
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2014, 01:54:27 pm »
So if 1/3 of the gun deaths are homicides that goes to my point your country has become as or more dangerous than Afghanistan I could say many cutting things about that but I will only say that I wont go across the line any more and let's build that border fence along the northern border.
Bill the demon.

I'm not sure I agree with your math. If, srust is correct that about 32,000 Americans died by gun violence (don't know which year that was) then that represents a per capita rate of 1:10,000. If 1:3 were homicides, then 1:29,000 died by gun violence. Seemingly, the "suicide" rate is far higher by using his statistics, 2:3 or 1:14,545 (give or take).

Compared to Afghanistan, where latest reports are that over the past 12 years, 3200 US Personnel have died out of roughly a peak strength of 150,000. That represents 1:46. The US is hardly less safe than Afghanistan, Bill.

In 2012 alone, 4700 cyclists and pedestrians were killed in the US. So if you do come, perhaps you should fly? That number is dwarfed by the approximately 65,000 who die annually due to poor fitness. Compare it again to the 33,000 who die in vehicle accidents annually. That makes cars more deadly than guns, and there's a lot more cars in the US.

My point is not to make light of a very serious, social issue here in the US. Not in the least. But it is to point out that when we focus only on the issue with which we disagree, we overlook other, very equally important problems.

I think Retro put it best: the US has a cultural/mentality issue to overcome. Our country has converted to one of absolute disregard for one another and there are far too many who'd rather pick up a gun, knife, bomb or BMW and mow down as many as they can before they leave this earth. I'm wearing out my carpet with my knees praying for some divine intervention to retard this utterly senseless plague. I'd welcome you to join me at any time, and I promise you'll be safe when you visit.

Best regards-
CJ

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Offline nccb

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2014, 02:16:44 pm »
Canada's suicide rate is a lot higher.  Maybe we can get all those down here who want to kill someone be pen pals with someone up there who wants to off themselves?  Kind of like masterbation for people who can't get laid:o

I know, its a morbid idea.

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2014, 02:23:11 pm »
So if 1/3 of the gun deaths are homicides that goes to my point your country has become as or more dangerous than Afghanistan I could say many cutting things about that but I will only say that I wont go across the line any more and let's build that border fence along the northern border.
Bill the demon.

That 1/3 of the total gun deaths that are not suicides includes justifiable shootings by law enforcement, homeowners protecting themselves from intruders, etc. Of those that are left, the vast majority are gang bangers, drug dealers and other assorted criminals offing each other. Yes, there are a handful of crazies that use guns to commit random killings every year. (Which also happens in Germany, Norway and other countries with very strict gun laws, btw.) But your odds as a typical law-abiding citizen of becoming a victim of gun violence as you go about your daily business are minuscule. So no, its not like Afghanistan down here.

You really can't compare to any other western country, you are stating single events compared to the USA's dismal record on gun violence and gun massacres, people get shot in all western countries, just no where near as regularly as in the US. We are lucky if we get 1 or 2 law enforcement shootings a YEAR here in Australia, and i can't remember the last time a home owner shot an intruder, mostly because or 2 reasons , the mentality of a NRA and its supporters and the sheer amount of guns available to anyone and everyone, I read last night a 3 year old accidentally shot an 18 month old baby in the head, I have NEVER heard of anything like that here, ever... Your chances you state are "minuscule" are 15 times worse than our stats, yes, thats, you're 15 times more likely to be shot and killed in the USA than Australia....
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Offline nccb

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2014, 02:25:43 pm »
You really can't compare to any other western country, you are stating single events compared to the USA's dismal record on gun violence and gun massacres, people get shot in all western countries, just no where near as regularly as in the US. We are lucky if we get 1 or 2 law enforcement shootings a YEAR here in Australia, and i can't remember the last time a home owner shot an intruder, mostly because or 2 reasons , the mentality of a NRA and its supporters and the sheer amount of guns available to anyone and everyone, I read last night a 3 year old accidentally shot an 18 month old baby in the head, I have NEVER heard of anything like that here, ever... Your chances you state are "minuscule" are 15 times worse than our stats, yes, thats, you're 15 times more likely to be shot and killed in the USA than Australia....

It is pretty disgusting.  There was a cop (can't remember which state) whose son found his gun while he was in the other room and shot himself by accident last week.  Luckily he didn't die.

Offline cj750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2014, 03:17:16 pm »
You really can't compare to any other western country, you are stating single events compared to the USA's dismal record on gun violence and gun massacres, people get shot in all western countries, just no where near as regularly as in the US. We are lucky if we get 1 or 2 law enforcement shootings a YEAR here in Australia, and i can't remember the last time a home owner shot an intruder, mostly because or 2 reasons , the mentality of a NRA and its supporters and the sheer amount of guns available to anyone and everyone, I read last night a 3 year old accidentally shot an 18 month old baby in the head, I have NEVER heard of anything like that here, ever... Your chances you state are "minuscule" are 15 times worse than our stats, yes, thats, you're 15 times more likely to be shot and killed in the USA than Australia....

Just a couple of questions:

1) By "i can't remember the last time a home owner shot an intruder" are you saying that Australia is devoid of burglars, rapists, etc., or that Australians simply allow themselves to be defenseless victims of criminal activity? If the former, you're very fortunate, but that's not the case here. And if the latter, that's not a choice I would make for myself or my loved ones.

2) What, pray tell, is "the mentality of a NRA and its supporters"?
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Offline martin99

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2014, 03:26:51 pm »
I don't think it's the availability of guns in the US that produces nutjobs (I use that phrase reluctantly as I work in psychiatry), but the accessibility of guns that allow these people to harm or threaten others to reach their own ends. In other words, it's the culture of violence that exists that is the problem, the fact that firearms are readily available just means the wrongdoers can be even more violent. The US probably doesn't have any larger a problem per capita percentage wise than anywhere else, but it does have a reputation for violence. I have no idea what the answer is, but I would think tighter gun laws would be a good start.

I remember taking a road trip with a couple of friends back in the early nineties. We had planned it to be the trip of a lifetime, three months travelling from east to west on a shoestring budget. We touched down in Tampa, and spent a week in Ft. Lauderdale before heading south to Naples. Wandering round, we were approached by two guys in Hawaii shirts and shorts who demanded to see our ID. When my mate said 'show us yours' they pulled back their shirts to reveal badges and guns on their waistbands. They made it clear we were not welcome in this area, where Liz Taylor and other famous people had homes, and ordered us to leave.

We bought Greyhound tickets and travelled up and across the southern states. In Tallahassee Bus Station, we watched amazed as a crack deal went down in broad daylight in front of us, the buyer paying with a gold chain he had just pulled from a young woman's neck. We continued to New Orleans and partied for a few days before heading into Houston, where we were recommended a hotel called the Montague. Terrific place. The guy behind the reception desk had a tourniquet around his arm, which set alarm bells ringing but it was cheap enough so we paid and went up to our room. Opening the door we were confronted by two single beds, both with what looked like vomit and faeces stains on them. Pulling back the blind we could see rats as big as cats scuttling around in the side alley. The 'peephole' in the door had been removed and plugged with a tampon! We realised this was a big mistake, and got out the room to be confronted by half a dozen big gang -type guys, knives and guns tucked in their belts but clearly on display. 'You checkin' out already?' one said. 'No, just going out for a look round' we replied and carried on walking. Once outside, we bolted to the nearest Days Inn and stayed there for the rest of the night.

The novelty was wearing thin by now. We continued down to San Antonio, visited the Alamo and went across the border at El Paso just so we could say we'd been to Mexico, then made our way back to New Orleans, staying in reputable motels, lesson learnt. We tipped up on Canal Street on New Years Day. The hotel we had stayed in previously was closed down - someone had gone crazy with a gun the day before and mowed down five people. From there it was red-eye bus ride all the way back to Tampa and on a flight home, our pre-conceived romantic notions of the US completely blown to pieces.

I didn't go back to the US for another ten years, when in 2001 we went to NY to celebrate my fortieth birthday. It was marvelous (as long as you like going up things) and we did all the tourist stuff you would expect - helicopter ride over Manhattan, stroll through Central Park, Maceys, Empire State Building and lunch in the Window to the World. Six months later the Twin Towers would be gone, and I consider myself privileged to have been able to enjoy this wonderful city before the necessary security measures brought in after the tragedy precluded many from having the same experience. My point is, this trip would not have been anywhere near as successful (I doubt) had I not learned the lessons of the roadtrip and planned our movements much more carefully and responsibly.

More recently, about five years ago, we did the Disney thing with the kids. We decided to drive up to the Kennedy Space Centre one day. I was advised to have a full tank of fuel and not to make any stops on the way, as it was a notorious road for tourists being robbed at gunpoint.

Don't know what I'm trying to say here really, perhaps just trying to explain how my experiences formed my opinion that America is a dangerous place to go. The rational part of me knows this can't be the same everywhere, and there are for sure places I'd rather not venture in good ol' Blighty, although I wouldn't generally worry about being shot.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2014, 04:19:02 pm »
You really can't compare to any other western country, you are stating single events compared to the USA's dismal record on gun violence and gun massacres, people get shot in all western countries, just no where near as regularly as in the US. We are lucky if we get 1 or 2 law enforcement shootings a YEAR here in Australia, and i can't remember the last time a home owner shot an intruder, mostly because or 2 reasons , the mentality of a NRA and its supporters and the sheer amount of guns available to anyone and everyone, I read last night a 3 year old accidentally shot an 18 month old baby in the head, I have NEVER heard of anything like that here, ever... Your chances you state are "minuscule" are 15 times worse than our stats, yes, thats, you're 15 times more likely to be shot and killed in the USA than Australia....

Just a couple of questions:

1) By "i can't remember the last time a home owner shot an intruder" are you saying that Australia is devoid of burglars, rapists, etc., or that Australians simply allow themselves to be defenseless victims of criminal activity? If the former, you're very fortunate, but that's not the case here. And if the latter, that's not a choice I would make for myself or my loved ones.

2) What, pray tell, is "the mentality of a NRA and its supporters"?

1  Yes we have home invasions but no where near as many and because there are far less guns, no one is "ready" to shoot anyone on either side, so the invasions are usually "less brutal",  less guns= less gun related crime. The biggest gun related problem we have here is in the Muslim communities of western Sydney

2 Do you really want me to tell you about the mentality of the NRA..?  , For instance, I will always remember Charlton Heston campaigning for guns straight after the columbine massacre, both sick and disgusting and a good example of the"mentality" i mentioned, selfish uncaring delusional  bastards would be more suitable, what about the NRA and gun shop owner that threatened to start shooting people when it was being talked about tightening gun control after another recent massacre..? The idiot posted the video on you tube, it was only up for a couple of days before Mr brain snap took it down, what an idiot, it was widely broadcast here to the inevitable disgust and ridicule of most Aussies as was the Heston debacle... I keep saying it, the USA has a problem with guns due to the wild west mentality of the country as a whole. The only way to see it is to look at it from another perspective, I have spoken the a few ex pat Americans here that "didn't get it" until they saw how the US acts and is portrayed from abroad, and lived in our relatively relaxed and relatively safe country, there's crime everywhere mate but the US differs greatly, from my experiences, to everywhere else in the West. And just so you know, guns are far from banned here, I shoot myself and my 2 brothers in law were Australasian trap and skeet Champions, as were their wives as well as avid hunters, the point is that i don't hate guns, i just don't think everyone should be armed to the teeth, the one big difference here is that we don't posses the mindset the US does, simple as that...
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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2014, 04:21:04 pm »
The reality here is that there really isn't a reason to discuss the subject. Nothing will change. The reasons for it are complex and many and this country is the best in the world at kicking the can down the road.  Poverty, lack of mental health services, education inequality, income inequality, little upward mobility, just plain miserable living conditions for way too many, and practically zero regulations concerning guns.

Of these things, the easiest cheapest and quickest way to get any kind of positive results would be to tighten gun restrictions. The problem is that one party categorically, ideologically and aggressively  opposes that, along with every other thing I listed. (Not a big fan of the pussies in the other party either) Basically, any idea you could come up with to help solve this problem has zero chance of passing in congress.

I think the most likely reason guns would ever banned here would be because of the pro-gun lobby's absolute opposition to any and all reasonable gun restrictions. Maybe eventually this will cause people to say enough is enough. (Reasonable people could argue we are way past that time)

Offline Bailgang

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2014, 04:38:24 pm »



Don't know what I'm trying to say here really, perhaps just trying to explain how my experiences formed my opinion that America is a dangerous place to go. The rational part of me knows this can't be the same everywhere, and there are for sure places I'd rather not venture in good ol' Blighty, although I wouldn't generally worry about being shot.

I grew up in Chicago and I never felt threatened in the area I grew up in but that's mostly because I knew where NOT to go because trouble was easy to find. That neighborhood I grew up in has drastically changed and is now rampant with gang violence, there were no gangs in the high school I went to but there is now and I for the most part have nothing to do with my childhood neighborhood because of the violence. Where I live now I'm pretty much surrounded by gun crazy rednecks yet I feel safe ..... I usually don't lock the doors on our vehicles because I don't see the need to however that sense of security that I have has nothing to do any irrational thoughts that my gun crazy neighbors would come to my rescue if some trigger happy goof showed up. Whether or not my neighbors have an armory for closet or not has nothing to do with my sense of security here. My sense of security comes from the moral values this area tends to have and it's those core values that I feel is what's missing elsewhere in my country.

I'm not talking about religion either it's the harsh fact of life that life isn't always fair and whether or not you choose to sink or swim when life deals you a lousy hand of cards. Fortunately many here choose to swim not matter how tough it is and that's the key. The issues behind it all are complicated but I strongly feel that our society here has been polluted with a sense of entitlement giving some a delusion of grandeur who turn into trigger happy quitters/sinkers if life doesn't go the way the expect it to. Yes availability to guns is an issue but it's actually just a small part of the problem, take the gun away and the goof will simply choose another tool like say drive their car into a crowded sidewalk. It's the sense of being entitled that many have that scares the hell out of me more than anything else and until or society can rid itself of that mentality and basically toughen up from a moral value point of view then we will be seeing more of these tragedies happen.

Alright I'm stepping off pulpit now. :)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 04:41:26 pm by Bailgang »
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2014, 04:55:59 pm »
I believe the "sink or swim" mentality is part of the problem. No sense of society. Everything is someone else's problem. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, blah , blah, blah. Unless we start acting like a society and start working on the causes of these problems that end up effecting us all, these things are guaranteed to continue.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 04:58:03 pm by JeffSTL »