Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 30073 times)

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Offline martin99

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #250 on: June 06, 2014, 04:50:59 PM »
I don’t profess to know anything about North American/Canadian gun laws, and have too little an understanding of the issues to comment with any authority or confidence. Apart from a brief departure featuring kangaroos, that I did grasp, much of the rest has frankly gone over my head although I have been trying to follow as best I can.

One recurrent theme I have noticed is the reference to mental illness, a subject I do feel able to comment on having been in psychiatric nursing for over twenty years. There appears to be an almost universal acceptance that the perpetrators of these murderous acts are mentally unwell. Well they must be, mustn’t they?

In my experience individuals who commit such acts can be mad, or bad, and the repercussions they face as a result of their acts should be tailored accordingly. It is no more right to call for their instant destruction than it is to label them all as of unsound mind. Each case must be judged on its own merit. In the UK, and I suspect in the rest of the civilised world, there are tests to ascertain a person’s culpability in such cases. Here they are referred to as mental capacity assessments and are adapted to many situations, for example from determining whether a person in the early stages of dementia has the capacity or capability to manage their own finances, to whether someone is able to attend court and understand and participate in the process.

To take the example of this latest shooter, he will no doubt undergo a string of psychiatric assessments in order to ascertain if he is fit to stand trial. He will be asked if he took the actions he did in the full knowledge of what he was doing and it will be determined whether he had full understanding of the consequences of his actions. In the absence of any other underlying mental health diagnoses he will likely stand trial and be dealt with accordingly through the judicial system. If deemed mentally unwell he may, by order of the court, be committed to a mental health institution for rehabilitation and treatment. Whether or not he ever got out would be another matter. At least that would be the process here.

Whilst the incidents of atrocity appear to be on the increase, the dilemma about how the perpetrators should be treated afterwards is not new. A prime example happened here in the UK in the 1960s, when Myra Hindley and Ian Brady abducted, killed and buried five children on Saddleworth Moor. Both received life imprisonment, with Hindley dying in custody in 2002 having earned the title of ‘most evil woman in Britain’. I was very young at the time of the convictions, but as I understand there were many calling for reinstatement of the death penalty.  In 1985 Brady was, some twenty years after the atrocities, deemed criminally insane and transferred to a high security psychiatric hospital. A case of bad, then mad? I think it’s fair to say that the majority of the population wanted them dead, but others argued they needed help, not punishment. These others, perhaps unsurprisingly, were not very popular and it would still take a brave man to put forward that argument today. But is it valid?

Either way it is not palatable for the parents and relatives of victims of such atrocities to have to contribute to the cost of care or detention of these people through their taxes. It is irksome to think their breakfasts are being paid for from the public purse, and even more galling when you understand that most perpetrators of such crimes are segregated from the rest of the inmates like child sex offenders are, for their own protection, meaning they have a relatively easy time inside prison. (In a previous role I visited several prisons. Sex offenders over here have their own wing, one particular one I visited had spacious cells with en-suite showers and patterned wallpaper, better than some hotels I’ve stayed in).

I’m not a pc tree-hugging do-gooder, far from it, and I do believe that people who commit these acts and can be demonstrated to have capacity for their crimes should get all that’s coming to them. But is it right to dish out the same retribution to someone who is mentally unwell? Those of us who decry the lack of mental health provision prior to such atrocities taking place should surely be demanding excellence in care after the event also? Isn’t that the civilised way?
I know it’s an emotive subject, but if we’re just going to say they’re all crazy and we should just lynch the fcukers, it makes little sense when we are showing so much empathy for them before they have done wrong. It also does little to address the stigma surrounding mental illness, from which one in four of us will suffer at some point in our lives.

Not at all sure what I’m saying here, just transferring a few rambling thoughts to the keyboard. :-\
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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #251 on: June 06, 2014, 05:07:52 PM »
My post just illustrates part of the problem. There many angles from which that scenario can be viewed. It seems to justify the victim's actions, and solve a problem at the same time. It's a strong argument for legal owners of firearms. I just asked what others thought
of it. No doubt there are other similar events that have happened with less than the desirable outcome. Laws for firearms need some change, just like the economy.
And only when they're fair. That will
only happen if two things occur. Compromise and sacrifice. It's a big siht sandwich, and we're all gonna have to take a bite. That I truly believe. For the record if it matters, I am not an anti gun person. And I don't like senseless killing any more than the next guy. :)

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #252 on: June 06, 2014, 05:28:33 PM »
Yeah, apparently abortion, libtards and Obummer are responsible for all this country's ills.


Quote
and resurrect the body of Ronnie Raygun this country would be a respectable place again!!

Ok, you don't/didn't like Reagan. But please do tell me another President in the past 50 years who presided over a greater global change in democratic freedom (Berlin wall, Soviet demise) greater national prosperity, and lower rates of homicide and drug violations in the US. He wasn't perfect by any stretch, but he's far from the villain your snide comment portrays.



I'll gladly take your challenge to dispute your claims of Reagan.

First, all real historians would say the most important cause of the fall of the Soviet Union by far was its failed, unsustainable political and economic system, which would have eventually collapsed regardless of American policy. Only Reagan revisionists believe he had much to do with it.

Second, Reagan's great prosperity?  Forbes, a very conservative publication, says it was by far Bill Clinton. This politifact post uses 3 different methods to try to figure this out and several presidents come out on top of Ronnie.

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2012/oct/29/tim-kaine/tim-kaine-says-bill-clinton-presided-over-biggest-/

Third, homicide rate. Every president since Reagan has presided over a lower homocide rate and gun specific homicide rates have been falling since around 1993, early in Clinton's terms.
See attached graph below.

Not saying Reagan was good or bad, but all of the things you are claiming make him good are easily disputable. 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 05:30:38 PM by JeffSTL »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #253 on: June 06, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »
BTW, I don't think the idea is to use some sort of mental health "test" to attempt to determine who may be a potential shooter. I think the idea is, over the past few decades we have cut all mental health services to an unacceptable level. Services that may help these people and their families deal with problems before they end up doing something to harm themselves or others.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #254 on: June 06, 2014, 06:21:58 PM »
I personally hope that when one of these very messed up 'mental case' people finally decide to admit they've got some serious problems(long Before they have a severe episode...like killing all of us)and decide to come 'out of the closet' and open up to another caring person w/ ALL the weird junk they've kept bottled up for so long..., well then I hope they really can find someone who will listen to'em as long as it takes to get'em back to some semblance of True Reality. Just giving them pills doesn't do that much for all the years of 'stinkin thinkin'... if you know what I mean.
I also hope they stop using this type of 'character' in so many movies
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #255 on: June 06, 2014, 06:38:38 PM »
Well, JeffSTL, it just proves you don't know a sihte.

Did you ever study economy?  Do you know anything about late Soviet Union? Did you ever study anything above high school level?

From here it looks like you did not.
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #256 on: June 06, 2014, 06:56:43 PM »
Well, JeffSTL, it just proves you don't know a sihte.

Did you ever study economy?  Do you know anything about late Soviet Union? Did you ever study anything above high school level?

From here it looks like you did not.

Right, from the genius that has contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation.  What exactly do you question? Maybe I could help clarify it for you. You have been a trove of useful info on this thread, I'm sure you would understand.(sarcasm totally intended)

Btw, I did happen to put myself through school and have a degree in mechanical drawing/CAD, thank you. Maybe you just can't see very well looking from over there.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #257 on: June 06, 2014, 07:24:14 PM »
Let's put an end to personal attacks, shall we?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #258 on: June 06, 2014, 07:53:48 PM »
I'm glad to see after almost 300 posts that folks are getting away from the '#$%* the evil bastards' for doing that to a realization that here in the USA access to mental healthcare and general recognition of obvious mental issues are overlooked and positioned as 'well he's different, isn't he ' even if he's ranting about mass killing on social media. Again sending cops to evaluate someone's mental state was an incredible surprise to me and unheard of anywhere but here !... just 'wow'... :-\
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #259 on: June 06, 2014, 08:00:47 PM »
Jeff I have friends 45-50 years that call me worse and I suppose the only thing that gets to me is ignorance, you know the type of thing where some one tries to pigeon hole me into their version of reality and now that I approach 75 after a reasonable eventful life the things that could be said about me is I'm a #$%* disturber and free thinker, my late wife would confirm that, my friends would agree, as far as being anything pro/anti gun I'm neither, the gun people say that guns don't kill the anti gun people say guns kill, what do the victims say is my question, also does taking away your gun trump taking away my life as far as bad goes, we are still not trying for a solution because we are side tracking ourselves about other things. Gun people haven't come up with a good argument about the rights of shot people. What I'm saying why is their right to gun more important than my right to life ? I'm most likely rambling and being a fuzzy thinker and I know that my plumbing is giving me the gears so it's #$%*sville again, #$%*ing pills any how enough for to night. The other thing for the newcomers the "demon" in my name has dick all to do with the dark side and has more to do with the Squadron I was in, 407 sqdn RCAF who's moto was to hold on high with a picture of a demon with a trident spearing a sub and it's easy to remember for me.
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Ps Bob I'm not being personal, see I'm even being relatively polite
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 08:09:30 PM by demon74 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #260 on: June 06, 2014, 09:23:13 PM »
I'm most likely rambling and being a fuzzy thinker and I know that my plumbing is giving me the gears so it's #$%*sville again, #$%*ing pills any how enough for to night.

Bill, there certainly didn't seem to be anything fuzzy about your post.

I think the quote above was totally worth waiting through 13 pages of nonsense.
To share, I had to leave "band" practice (I try to play bass) tonight to head to #$%*sville myself.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:26:51 PM by JeffSTL »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #261 on: June 06, 2014, 10:45:12 PM »
That's a very good point Bill, what rights do victims of gun crime have, compared to the rights of gun owners? How do you test someone to confirm that they're not going to use their guns against innocents?

As part of my selection for service in Special Forces, I had to undergo a full day of psychiatric testing to ensure that I wasn't nuts, then I had to attend a selection course (with an average 80% failure rate) then I had to pass a heap of physical tests, and other specialist courses, including specialist weapon training, but it seems that all a US civilian needs to obtain a lethal weapon is fill out some forms, pay a fee, wait for a "cooling off" period, and then go buy whatever guns are legal to own.

Wouldn't a psyche test for current and potential gun owners be a good start to weed out the nuts from genuine gun owners? Sure, some folks would have their guns taken off them, and some wouldn't be allowed to own guns at all, but why should their second amendment rights outweigh the rights of their potential victims, to live?

I see that a loony in Georgia has just been dispatched after he shot a deputy and tried to drive his bomb laden car into a court house. Luckily the cops were able to use their guns to kill the would be mass killer before he was able to carry out his plan. This is a good example of folks who should have guns using them to thwart the atrocities of those who obviously shouldn't. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #262 on: June 06, 2014, 11:28:49 PM »


As part of my selection for service in Special Forces, I had to undergo a full day of psychiatric testing to ensure that I wasn't nuts, then I had to attend a selection course (with an average 80% failure rate) then I had to pass a heap of physical tests, and other specialist courses, including specialist weapon training, but it seems that all a US civilian needs to obtain a lethal weapon is fill out some forms, pay a fee, wait for a "cooling off" period, and then go buy whatever guns are legal to own.



Actually Terry, it's not even that difficult. Most states allow private person to person gun sales without any kind of background check at all. All you are required to do is verify the buyer is of legal age. No fees, no cooling off, no paper work, no record of the transaction even has to be kept and no one would have any knowledge of the sale. A law passed in the 1980's allows for this. The firearms owners protection act. It is this provision that is sometimes called "the gunshow loophole". Only licensed dealers are required to perform background checks and such.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 11:34:24 PM by JeffSTL »

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #263 on: June 07, 2014, 05:06:17 AM »
What were they saying when they penned the words life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Life except if it interferes with a gun owners right and where's the pursuit of happiness with a hole in me? It seems to me that we are descending into angels on pin mode. Liberty I won't go there other than dead people usually don't have much liberty they mostly go where others put them.
Terry, mostly I had to do the same thing all though not as intense as you, after all a slack and lazy pigeon was never supposed have anything more dangerous in their hands than a screwdriver or a beer, but I had to take training on weapons and they did check on my mental stability before I was allowed to play. So why does some rambot wannabee get to go and pick up something that'll shred and turn to bloody jelly their fellow citizens with no mental evaluation or training in the name of gun owners rights. Yes I know the villians don't care about rights so crush them if they use a weapon to maim, kill, intimidate.
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 05:26:30 AM by demon74 »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #264 on: June 07, 2014, 05:17:32 AM »
What were they saying when they penned the words life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Life except if it interferes with a gun owners right and where's the pursuit of happiness with a hole in me? It seems to me that we are descending into angels on pin mode. Liberty I won't go there other than dead people usually don't have much liberty they mostly go where others put them.
Bill the demon.

But that is USA, how about the Canada shooting and yours Canada liberties? It did not quite work out now, did it?  All the people who face red tape just to buy a hunting rifle on top of it the great health care system and it just happens in the same way as in the USA.

Apparently the Canada way does not work either. Or does it?
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #265 on: June 07, 2014, 05:35:28 AM »
70 cb of course our system doesn't work, what I've being doing all a long is look for an alternative and I believe I've said that in a prior post because I can see the edge coming up, if you are trying to say that the US system is better go for it, I disagree and am trying to use your collective (American) experiences and others to make our system better.
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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #266 on: June 07, 2014, 05:39:06 AM »
Your point is well put and despite my emotive "put them down comment" I'd have to agree with you.

Where I struggle, is how do we identify and prevent these atrocities using mental testing? Do we line everyone up and administer exams? Is there some universal screening process that is accurate enough and equally agreed to? Who sets the standards of unwell, wacky, or likely to be grossly violent?

It's this chasm that creates the divide between my perspective and some others. I'm not sure there is a remedy to the above, hence my emotive, "If you can't prevent this, make certain it never happens again". Inhumane? Perhaps. Uncivilized? I'll concede that too. But sometimes, harsh punishments can be sufficient deterrent to potential criminals.


I'm not sure there is a way to identify them. And harsh punishment as a deterrant could work maybe in some cases. What we CAN do is, and it'll take a generation or two, is TEACH our kids that this kind of stuff is just plain WRONG and EVIL. Something in these nut cases past, and I know there are exceptions, has caused them to be the way they are. Neglected, bullied, etc. Start when they're young, and plant good seeds.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #267 on: June 07, 2014, 05:51:55 AM »
70 cb of course our system doesn't work, what I've being doing all a long is look for an alternative and I believe I've said that in a prior post because I can see the edge coming up, if you are trying to say that the US system is better go for it, I disagree and am trying to use your collective (American) experiences and others to make our system better.
Bill the demon.

Bill, I am not saying USA system is better, my point wad that whenever the USA health care is criticized and the gun ownership, Canada often comes as the good example.

Ok, i was being smug about, my apologies.

DH: in my experience, that is NRA. Teaching kids how to use a gun and teaching them respect to weapons.  Also hunting. Seeing the effect of gun shot on living being makes you very selective in your target.

 Now to respect human life thst would be Christianity. Put it together and you have the southern type of redneck everybody picks on  - but they dont go shoot up schools.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #268 on: June 07, 2014, 05:55:12 AM »
Unfortunately the hip today is respect nothing, moral values are mocked and freedom to do as you please is evrybodys right.

Off my soap box now.
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #269 on: June 07, 2014, 06:55:47 AM »
I could make many replies to that some flip some nasty, but it gets down to there has to be a better way, you guys for the last 30 years have portrayed yourselves as # 1 to the world, something to emulate, but there are cracks, citizen gun violence is one and it is being exported to the world now you are running up against the clash of rights and which takes precedence. I am seeing it from the perspective of a "brother" that doesn't live at home and it worries me that it (gun violence) is spilling out all over the world, so to some extent you have a responsibility to try to come up with a solution for your selves and that the rest of the world can go with. Yes your constitution is a wonderful document so was the bible and yes both have been subject to modifications, unfortunately some of the mods are not working. As far as assailing gun owners tell them not to assail me and I'm fine. I don't think that writers of the constitution had any idea what it would descend into. If you agree there is a problem rounding errors don't come into it. Pill time.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #270 on: June 07, 2014, 07:46:57 AM »
I have said this before. This is a circular argument which will have no resolution. It is not about Canada, Australia or anywhere else in the World. it has to do with the US that has had a history of very liberal gun ownership since it's founding. It has not been much of a problem until recently.

I have posted what is believed to be the number of Guns in private hands, but the number is probably higher. No one knows and no one will find them all.

I posted a piece of a report to Congress that clearly showed that the sales skyrocketed with all of the rhetoric and people I have known all my life that never owned a Gun came to me for a recommendation and now own one.  I can tell you it was hard to get a box of Ammo around here. That has leveled off.

The Ammo shortage was blamed as a Gov't conspiracy. The NRA had an article showing it was a buying frenzy and the Ammo makers were not going to expand production for what they knew was a blip.

The media has been fueled some of this. Mentally ill people have been shown a spectacular way to act out and that is what is spilling over the border, not the guns. The guns have gone back and forth  across the border since there was a border.  I hate to call it a fad, but it is like one.

People will own Guns in the U.S. that is a fact that no one can change.  We need to start helping people who are ill and need help.
 
 
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #271 on: June 07, 2014, 07:53:46 AM »


Jeff is correct, for a private sale of a firearm, there is not a background check or waiting period required. Just as with a car, a boat or a dog. But I doubt very seriously that many guns are actually sold this way by "lawful" sellers to "unlawful" buyers. Some, sure. But not enough to warrant the wholesale change in my opinion. I've certainly not heard of it being the source for a steady stream of illegally used guns if it

A car, boat and even a dog have to be registered here. In Missouri, a car has to be titled, licensed, insured, have a safety inspection, pay property tax, and you have to have a lisence to drive the car. A boat has to be registered and titled before it can be put in public water and even the trailer has to be registered, licensed, and taxed. My dog had to be registered with the city and it is required that he have rabies shots.

A private gun sale? Just cash for gun and walk away. Nothing else.

Terry, you can find loads of guns for sale online. It would not be difficult at all to, if he idea popped into your head, jump online, find a gun, call and be home with a perfectly legal gun and ammo in 30 minutes or less. No one would have to know except buyer and seller.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 07:58:13 AM by JeffSTL »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #272 on: June 07, 2014, 08:15:15 AM »


But damn, we can't even agree whether homosexuals should be allowed to marry or whether showing a state issued ID card to vote is Constitutional? And you expect us to solve our problems with guns? Someone ring the wake up bell please!

Actually, a majority of us can agree that homosexuals should be able to marry and the unconstitutional bans on gay marriage are dropping like flies.

Gun ownership and hunting have been on a decline since the early 70's and gun owners are not the majority in this country. Actual numbers are not possible because of our lack of regulation, but the longest standing survey on he matter shows a decline from about 50% in 1973 to about 30% in 2010. Gun sales are up, but mostly sales to people who already own guns.

The gun rights crowd speaks very loudly, but do not confuse it with a majority opinion. Your ranks are dwindling and if the the gun lobby refuses to compromise the people will eventually pull the rug out from under them.

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #273 on: June 07, 2014, 08:41:51 AM »
Cal if I thought you were attacking me personally my response would be totally different and Bob would be telling me at the least to straighten up, at the worst he'd be kicking me off the forum as far as illuminating goes I don't know but I know that southern north americans because of their system and history tend to navel gaze and not understand they are part of an increasingly shrinking world, northern north americans have more of a world view because of our history and system even though they don't want to, any how it seems to me as a brother that every once in a while you guys need prodding to bring you back to the 21st century.Being a 1st class #$%* disturber I guess it's my duty to poke occasionally. As to pills all the ones that I'm taking hurt my stomach so beer is my weapon of choice any thing stronger would mean that a working Teflon #$%* had been invented, plus the gorgeous young lady dr. said that the blood thinner I'm on carries the risk of bleeding in the stomach so my Single Malt sits on shelf ignored.
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 08:52:47 AM by demon74 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #274 on: June 07, 2014, 08:43:13 AM »
The idea that the 2nd Ammendment is some kind of absolute right that gives private citizens the ability to keep and carry guns is a very recent thing in this country. The Supreme Court had always maintained that a "well regulated militia" meant military, the national guard.

James Maddison's original text as submitted to the House read:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.


States, counties, and cities were free to decide what gun laws worked best for their needs. A city could say nothing on the matter or a city could outright ban all guns. In fact, it wasn't until 2008 when the ultra conservative John Roberts led Supreme Court ruled that DC's handgun restriction were unconstitutional that this changed. 

The idea of an unfettered 2nd amendment right is a very new thing and is an extremist view.