Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 29405 times)

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Offline nccb

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2014, 06:52:36 PM »
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/news/2013/04/02/58293/interactive-measuring-gun-violence-across-the-50-states/

Its from 2013 so I am assuming the data used was fairly recent but this could be 2010 - 2012 data.  Not sure how quickly it is released to the public.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2014, 06:58:09 PM »
Just the simple fact that you picture NRA like this shows you have no idea what is going on.

And I dont blame you, I get the same naive view from people from Europe, they just go with the lame stream media picture and don't try to understand any more than what the glass tit (aka TV) supplies.

Just flip it around and look at the shootings and you can see that the killing is never done by gun nuts, by people who shoot a lot or hunt a lot or make their own ammo. It is always some liberal nutcase, with low respect for life who has issues.  The typical right extremist - in current lingo it is a christian who pays taxes goes to church and has a gun or two - is never the culprit. But the liberal media always hope they can pin it on somebody like that.

Remember 02 snipping in DC, everybody believed it is a crazy good old white boy a supremacist of some sort - and everybody was surprise who it really was.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:03:49 PM by 70CB750 »
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2014, 07:06:27 PM »
OK, edit: The Hmong shooting was done by a hunter, but following the example of holly hussein who called Allah Akbar army base shooting workplace violence I can call the Hmong shooting Hobby violence and not a massacre.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2014, 07:41:55 PM »
Just the simple fact that you picture NRA like this shows you have no idea what is going on.

Our 60 minutes did an interview with one of the hierarchy in the NRA and tied him in knots, he contradicted himself that many times he ended up agreeing with the reporter after talking himself round in circles, it was great to watch him squirm. I picture the NRA, based on what i've seen of them first hand, their media release3s, their lobbying to Govt, their senate hearings and so on,  not what the media portrays, and just to make a point, Rupert Murdoch owns a large percentage of the Aussie media and is so pro USA he can't hide it, he also owns news outlets, news papers and Fox in the USA as well as media in the UK and is a dual Aussie US citizen, besides, the news relating to the USA we get here is CBS, ABC, CNN and the like, you would be surprised Prokop, most of our overseas news is actually from America, I watched Larry King last night for a while on his show "politiking", we get tons of USA news and current affairs shows. I've seen and read plenty of propaganda from the NRA and if you think they don't profit from a fear based campaign then maybe its you not seeing it for what it is... ;)  Seriously, its not nit picking, its not one sided media, actually it has nothing what so ever to do with any of that, its the fact that we are nothing like you guys in the way that we think as well as having a lot in common, I know that contradictory but its true, and therein lies the conflict, we are all the same people you guys {not all} have a totally different way of thinking and that includes guns, that gets us back to the "mentality" i spoke about earlier... Its not personal, just different, its quite funny, but most people i know think that "you have no idea what is going on" is am American thing...... ;D ;)
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Offline cj750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
OK then, a few facts:

According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, the Australian Bureau of Criminology has openly acknowledged that Australia's adoption of stringent gun laws did not reduce violent crime. In fact, according to the DC Examiner, Australia's highest year for gun murder was in 2006 -- after the ban. Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research also accounted for 46% increase in assaults and a 6% increase in the robberies after the firearm ban was implemented. Sexual assault in Australia rose 30%, and overall violent crime rose over 42%.

As for foreigners not understanding Americans or what groups like the NRA stand for, yes, I largely blame the media. Much of what passes for journalism here is irresponsible rubbish. Its no challenge to cherry pick and edit stories from US sources to distort American culture and make the rare exception appear to be the norm. I've lived overseas (no, not specifically in Australia) and I've seen it.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2014, 07:52:19 PM »
+1

Sorry Bobby but most of that last post from cj was opinion, not based on any relevant fact...
I was agreeing with him. I would never try to tell an Australian what it is like to live in Australia. I have met quite a few and I like them. I have lived and traveled around the U.S. and unless you live here and understand the culture, it is like watching Crocodile Dundee and thinking you know what Australia and  Australians are like.

Yes we have some drug and crime infested cities filled with violence. But it is a big place and these are small isolated pockets.  Most of the Country is quite tranquil and very safe.




   
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2014, 07:52:48 PM »
Retro- you hit the bullseye with your NRA remarks, but I'm shocked that you were shocked by the actions of a troll like Heston. The NRA is in the business of lobbying for gun manufacturers. They get their millions from gun manufactures to promote gun sales. Nothing more, nothing less. They could care less about their hapless member's ability to hunt, "defend themselves", sport shooting or anything else other than promoting the sales of guns.

Having a gun in your home makes everyone in that home more likley to be shot.
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:59:10 PM by JeffSTL »

Offline kmb69

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2014, 07:59:54 PM »
Bailgang, Your analysis is right on target (pardon the pun). The root cause of the problem is not guns, the NRA, or "gun crazy rednecks". I also feel much safer in that crowd than certain others. It is very difficult to get the "facts" about most of these atrocities since 90% of the US news media (other than talk radio) is in the tank with the "progressives" of our society and are hell bent to protect their failing ideology. Even media outlets that get the closest to the truth are throttled by political correctness and/or the fear of delatorius claims of racism or sexism regardless of the perpetrator's etnicity or gender. Ninty-nine out of one hundred of these massacres are perpetrated by individuals associated with a particular demographic and/or were raised in a familial environment of a particular political persuasion and/or just obvious nut cases whose family refused to acknowlege and have them committed for help - NOT "gun crazy rednecks" or "NRA members" or "extreme right wingers" or "The Tea Party". This country has been plummeting downhill, like a snowball headed for hell, since the 1964 implementation of the "Great Society". Trillions of dollars flushed with NO positive results, results arguably an order of magnitude worse, and with no end in sight. Yes, Heston got slammed by the same anti gun people who were screaming "NRA" from the first news braodcast. JeffSTL almost got it right, "Unless we start acting like a" RESPONSIBLE "society and start working on the causes of these problems that end up effecting us all, these things are guaranteed to continue".

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On February 11, 2014, P.J.Buchanan had the balls to write an article telling it like it is:

The more liberal the welfare state, the greater the disincentive to work and the more ruinous the impact upon a nation’s work ethic.

The CBO has just given us a statistical measure of that truth.

The HR 3200 subsidies, it said, will cause some to quit work, others to cut back on the hours they work, and others to hold off going to work, so as not to lose the benefits.

The cumulative impact of all these decisions will be equal to the loss of 2.5 million jobs by 2024. A devastating blow to an economy where the labor force participation is at a 30-year low.

The CBO has put a number on what everyone knows to be true: If people don’t have to work to provide the needs of their daily lives, some will drop out and become permanent charges on the public purse, deadbeats.

The father of modern liberalism, FDR, never disputed this. As he warned in 1935, welfare is "a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."

This used to be called common sense. Growing up, we all knew or read that those who inherited great wealth often ended up never holding a "real job" and spent their days in a life of self-indulgence.

However, a related and larger question is raised by the CBO: If HR 3200 alone will cost the equivalent of 2.5 million lost jobs to the U.S. economy, what is the impact of our entire welfare state on the vitality and dynamism of the U.S. labor force?

As Robert Rector wrote in January, if we judge Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society only by the dollars spent to improve the lives of the poor and near-poor, an astronomical $20 trillion, it was a success. Rector describes its dimensions:

The federal government runs more than 80-means tested programs that provide cash, food, housing, medical care and targeted social services to poor and low-income Americans.

Government spent $916 billion on these programs in 2012 alone, and roughly 100 million Americans received aid from at least one of them, at an average cost of $9,000 per recipient. (That figure doesn’t include Social Security or Medicare.)

Federal and state welfare spending, adjusted for inflation, is 16 times greater than it was in 1964.

Yet, if we judge the Great Society by its goal, providing the poor with their basic family needs so they can go out into the marketplace and find jobs and join their fellow Americans, it has been, writes Rector, "a catastrophe."

Scores of millions of Americans are today less able to achieve self-sufficiency through work than were their grandparents.

And by providing for all the needs that the father used to provide for his family, the Great Society has helped make fathers superfluous. We have created a system where a teenage girl who becomes pregnant can have all her basic needs met by government. This is a primary cause of the rise in illegitimacy in America from 6 percent of all births in 1963 to 41 percent today, and to 53 percent among Hispanics and 73 percent among African-Americans. And that record illegitimacy rate is directly tied to the drug use rate, the dropout rate, the crime rate, and the incarceration rate.

If the goal of the Great Society was to turn America’s tax consumers into taxpayers, it has been a total failure. We have now a vast underclass of scores of millions who are dependent upon government for most or all of their basic needs, a class among whom many, if not most, have lost the ability to survive without government money, food, and shelter.

This is something new in America, something we did not know with the Irish boat people of the 1840s, the Okies in Dust Bowl days or during the Great Depression of the 1930s.

Monday’s New York Times reveals a relevant and startling fact: only 8 percent of the cab and rental car drivers in New York City are native-born Americans. Three times as many yellow cabdrivers in New York were born in Bangladesh than in the USA.

What is happening in America is that the vast cohort of working men and women, immigrants, illegal and legal, who have come in recent decades, 30 to 40 million, have displaced, have dispossessed, the native-born.

But we may be coming to the end of the line. From Detroit to Greece to Puerto Rico, government’s ability to expand the benefits of the welfare class by taxing the working and middle class is reaching its limit. Taxpayers are rebelling, budgets are falling dangerously out of balance, and the welfare state is beginning to buckle under the load.

Perhaps T. S. Eliot was right: "This is how the world ends/ Not with a bang but a whimper."
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The problem is definitely rooted in a failing human morality with an "I breathe, so I deserve" mentality. IMO

OK, off my pulpit now.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2014, 08:08:01 PM »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs

The NRA supported the NFA along with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), which together created a system to federally license gun dealers and established restrictions on particular categories and classes of firearms. They understood some rational system was needed in accordance with their ficus on safety.

The anti gun groups became very militant and became hysterical calling for all types of unreasonable regulations.

The NRA had to react to this. Now, we have pro and anti groups pushing each other to the wall. At this point there is no rationality on either side, which I find sad.   
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Offline cj750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2014, 08:57:20 PM »
Statistically, you're 10,000 times more likely to be killed by hitting a kangaroo while riding a motorcycle in Australia than in the USA. But you don't see Americans lecturing the Aussies about their Kangaroo Problem and sick Kangaroo Culture.

BTW, I've seen "Crocodile Dundee" and "The Road Warrior" so that pretty much makes me an expert on Australian culture.

On a more serious note, its truly great that we can debate an emotional topic on this forum without it degenerating into personal attacks and over-the-top rants. When more people can talk civilly about problems that divide us, we'll be closer to solving them.

And that's as close to a kumbaya moment as you'll get from me.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2014, 11:35:06 PM »
So this idea that keeps getting floated out there that's it's just the inner city gangs/ bad guys/ etc is just so much bullsh!t.  It's just the bad guys or the nutjobs and everyone else who owns the guns are the good guys.

Please carefully read what was written. Nobody said there weren't other incidences of gun violence, only that every day, every week these numbers far exceed the others. Yet no one seems to care about this epidemic.

Please do climb down off your pedestal and stop lecturing those who have different interests and let's try to constructively address the issue of the cause, not the results and statistics. Your posting of 2/3 of the deaths being from suicides is completely news to my ears. Are you saying that if guns didn't exist then suicides would stop? I find that absurd. Does the most recent lad in Santa Barbara count as a suicide since his death came as a result of self-inflicted gun violence? If so, then good. Chalk up tons more of the nut jobs taking their own lives so ewe don't spend a dime studying, putting them up in prison, psychiatric analysis and court room fees. Save the money and spend it on law enforcement to dissuade these evil doers from perpetrating their evil acts.

    Please do stop putting words in my mouth.  What I posted was that 1 in 3 gun related deaths are homicides and 2 in 3 are suicides.  It's a simple statistic readily available if you due a simple internet search and I have mentioned it before so it shouldn't be "news to your ears."  That you don't  seem to be able to accept this simple fact makes me wonder where you get your information.
    I mentioned nothing about suicides stopping if guns were not involved.  Like you said that would be absurd.  Why are you asking me about the guy in Santa Barbara?  I don't compile the statistics.  I would assume he would be listed as a suicide and the people he killed would be listed as homicide.   Throwing all this up there does allow you to get up on your pedestal and put words in my mouth.
  As far as the 32,000 number if anyone is wondering...it's just an average since the last stats only go up to 2012 but looking at he trends it has been rising for the most part for the last 10 years and was in the 31,000-32,000 range and trending upward so it would not surprise me if 32,000 was actually low.
   Someone else mentioned "justifiable homicides" and that number is quite low compared to the overall total...around 600 as an average.

At least our cars are getting safer...now it looks like guns will surpass cars as the leading cause of non-medical deaths in the U.S.
   
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 12:04:19 AM by srust58 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2014, 12:04:37 AM »
OK then, a few facts:

According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, the Australian Bureau of Criminology has openly acknowledged that Australia's adoption of stringent gun laws did not reduce violent crime. In fact, according to the DC Examiner, Australia's highest year for gun murder was in 2006 -- after the ban.

To correct you CJ, I've read that study also. But if you read further, it clearly states that after 2006 Australia has seen a tremendous DROP in both violent and gun crime. In fact, Retro is not misstating their statistics at all. They are widely regarded as among the least crime-ridden (violent) countries globally. And this all came about after their ban.

I don't get it either. But it is true and indisputable. It flies in the face of wisdom but you cannot argue with the empirical evidence. Must be all the beer and hot chicks has found a means of chilling them out  :)

Yes Cal, you would call that a welcome distraction... ;D 8)

Sorry CJ but you only read what you wanted to read there mate, and it was incorrect.... ;)

Statistically, you're 10,000 times more likely to be killed by hitting a kangaroo while riding a motorcycle in Australia than in the USA. But you don't see Americans lecturing the Aussies about their Kangaroo Problem and sick Kangaroo Culture.

BTW, I've seen "Crocodile Dundee" and "The Road Warrior" so that pretty much makes me an expert on Australian culture.

On a more serious note, its truly great that we can debate an emotional topic on this forum without it degenerating into personal attacks and over-the-top rants. When more people can talk civilly about problems that divide us, we'll be closer to solving them.

And that's as close to a kumbaya moment as you'll get from me.

You never see Roos in the cities CJ, I lived in the country for 7 years and saw plenty but never hit one on my bikes or car for that matter although i had friends that did, in cars, I don't know of any reports of them killing anyone though. I don't profess to be an American expert at all but i've explained this before, we are a very young country with little history, when i was at school i did projects on the American civil war, the declaration of independence , Paul Revere,  Indians, the Pilgrims, the Salem witch hunt and other very interesting history, we are generally "internationally" schooled here and generally know a reasonable amount about our coalition partners overseas, I know this differs greatly from the US school system but thats just the way it is here, I have always had an interest in World Politics, or maybe dislike is a better word but when the US puts itself out there as the "world police" they must expect scrutiny my friend.... ;)
Oh , and we don't ride Kangaroos to school either... ;D :P
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2014, 12:20:02 AM »
  Ninty-nine out of one hundred of these massacres are perpetrated by individuals associated with a particular demographic and/or were raised in a familial environment of a particular political persuasion and/or just obvious nut cases whose family refused to acknowlege and have them committed for help - NOT "gun crazy rednecks" or "NRA members" or "extreme right wingers" or "The Tea Party".

OK, off my toilet now.


There I fixed it for you.  Aside from all the other "facts" that you presented which I don't see any point repeating I am curious about how you came about this "99 out of 100 fact" Please do tell.  It wouldn't have anything to do with your ass would it? ;D

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2014, 01:08:17 AM »
another one?

This is intriguing. So few words started this thread and now look. Dave what have you done?  :-\

Offline dave500

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2014, 02:36:29 AM »
every time I see your user name I think of AK47?

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2014, 03:08:10 AM »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2014, 03:28:35 AM »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.

Note the very important " 'was' basically an educational organization." That all changed when radicals overthrew the board of directors and ousted the leadership in 1977. Since then they have been nothing but a lobbying group for gun manufacturers and do the other things only to promote gun sales.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2014, 03:32:40 AM »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.

Note the very important " 'was' basically an educational organization." That all changed when radicals overthrew the board of directors and ousted the leadership in 1977. Since then they have been nothing but a lobbying group for gun manufacturers and do the other things only to promote gun sales.

You don't say?  1977 I lived in Czechoslovakia, I am in USA since 90ties.  This is the only NRA I know. 

Maybe cut down on watching TV and actually get to know what you are talking about?

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2014, 04:04:33 AM »
Kangaroos are just arseholes. I live in the northern suburbs of the city of Melbourne, and have recently seen several dead 'Roo's that have been hit by cars in nearby streets. When I commuted to Puckapunyal Military Base from 2002-2007 I lost count of how many of the big hairy bastards I hit in my little Toyota work truck, but I killed 6 in the first 6 months, and had the "Bull Bar" replaced twice in 4 years as it was so badly bent from hitting Roo's on the Hume Highway.

When I was visiting Brian (Bear) at the hospital a couple of years ago he introduced me to one of his fellow patients who'd been cleaned up by a Roo when riding his Italian sportsbike @ 60 MPH. The Roo hit him at right angles and threw him into a tree, turning him into an instant paraplegic. A month ago I almost joined him when a Wallaby (the Kangaroo's stupid little cousin) jumped off an embankment and smacked into me as I was cruising past on my big black 'Wang. Luckily enough it was just a slight graze and not a big whack, or I might have been history. How fcuking tragic would that be?

I'm a Beatles fan, but that silly old pr1ck Paul McCartney publicly supported a British hippy wanker protest against Kangaroo culling in 2008, so he can get fcuked too. If he's worried about Roo's being culled into extinction I'll take him for a drive up the Hume highway at dawn or dusk and see if he doesn't scream like Rolf Harris's 13 year old girlfriend when I have to start swerving around those big hairy jumping poofters who've got no road sense, they're just thinking about Kangaroo poontang and nothing else, and don't care who gets in their way.............. ;D

http://video.nationalgeographic.com.au/video/worlds-deadliest-ngs/deadliest-kangaroo#deadliest-kangaroo?source=relatedvideo&_suid=140144757278306965711560117402
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2014, 04:12:04 AM »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.

Note the very important " 'was' basically an educational organization." That all changed when radicals overthrew the board of directors and ousted the leadership in 1977. Since then they have been nothing but a lobbying group for gun manufacturers and do the other things only to promote gun sales.

You don't say?  1977 I lived in Czechoslovakia, I am in USA since 90ties.  This is the only NRA I know. 

Maybe cut down on watching TV and actually get to know what you are talking about?

Actually, I do not have cable and rarely watch television. I do this thing called reading. Maybe you should read about the nra's history. You might find out about it's hostile takeover by radicals in 1977 and about how they used to be a non-partisan non-political organization that didn't believe in some absolute 2nd amendment right. Maybe cut down on your head in the sand.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 04:14:08 AM by JeffSTL »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2014, 04:14:55 AM »
I am not talking NRA history, I am talking about my personal experience with NRA after it became only a lobby for gun makers - your words.

Since this is my experience against your opinion, I rest my case.
Prokop
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Sidecar


CB900C

2006 KLR650

Offline JeffSTL

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 392
  • CB750 K6
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2014, 04:22:42 AM »
Rest your case with your head planted firmly in the sand. Good job.

Offline JeffSTL

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 392
  • CB750 K6
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2014, 04:30:48 AM »
You would think that a group that proclaims to it's membership to be about gun safety and education would do everything it can to help stem violent gun crime. Yet, they do nothing and are happy to do so.

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,817
  • Northern Virginia
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2014, 04:56:52 AM »
Yes, deer is a problem.  I got 4 pointer with my CB750, two years ago:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=114567.0

Still have the dent in the fuel tank.
Prokop
_______________
Pure Gas - find ethanol free gas station near you

I love it when parts come together.

Dorothy - my CB750
CB750K3F - The Red
Sidecar


CB900C

2006 KLR650

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,070
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2014, 05:00:45 AM »
who owns the deer?does the govt?ive hit I don't know how many roos in proper heavy trucks with proper bull bars that are designed to deflect what they hit downward and underneath and you hope an airhose doesent get ripped out,the govt here was thinking about banning bull bars because they kill people,then there was what angles they could be projected at etc?inventing jobs for themselves discussing it?