Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 27170 times)

0 Members and 21 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2014, 06:09:31 pm »

I didn't go back to the US for another ten years, when in 2001 we went to NY to celebrate my fortieth birthday. It was marvelous (as long as you like going up things) and we did all the tourist stuff you would expect - helicopter ride over Manhattan, stroll through Central Park, Maceys, Empire State Building and lunch in the Window to the World. Six months later the Twin Towers would be gone, and I consider myself privileged to have been able to enjoy this wonderful city before the necessary security measures brought in after the tragedy precluded many from having the same experience. My point is, this trip would not have been anywhere near as successful (I doubt) had I not learned the lessons of the roadtrip and planned our movements much more carefully and responsibly.

More recently, about five years ago, we did the Disney thing with the kids. We decided to drive up to the Kennedy Space Centre one day. I was advised to have a full tank of fuel and not to make any stops on the way, as it was a notorious road for tourists being robbed at gunpoint.


I live outside of Manhattan and have most of my life. I have also traveled around the USA t will. Your experience in NY was typical, it is a safe City even post 9/11.  Wonderful place to explore.

In Florida they made the Handgun laws very liberal, so it is very likely that a car with Florida plates has a handgun in it. That is the reason Tourists have been preyed upon in some areas - locals will take a shot at you, so a Tourist is easy pickings. I have driven through that area you speak of and someone was having fun with you.

I have a concealed carry permit, and this year I carried it only to the range. I work in an area where I am probably the only White person on the street. I drive with the window open and stop at  all of the stop lights. The Home boys see me every day and no issues.  This whole thing is way overblown. The US is not generally  dangerous with some exceptions. I remember when the IRA was bombing all over London, nobody gets a free pass.

   
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline cj750

  • Sure ain't no
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2014, 06:16:54 pm »

1  Yes we have home invasions but no where near as many and because there are far less guns, no one is "ready" to shoot anyone on either side, so the invasions are usually "less brutal",  less guns= less gun related crime. The biggest gun related problem we have here is in the Muslim communities of western Sydney

2 Do you really want me to tell you about the mentality of the NRA..?  , For instance, I will always remember Charlton Heston campaigning for guns straight after the columbine massacre, both sick and disgusting and a good example of the"mentality" i mentioned, selfish uncaring delusional  bastards would be more suitable, what about the NRA and gun shop owner that threatened to start shooting people when it was being talked about tightening gun control after another recent massacre..? The idiot posted the video on you tube, it was only up for a couple of days before Mr brain snap took it down, what an idiot, it was widely broadcast here to the inevitable disgust and ridicule of most Aussies as was the Heston debacle... I keep saying it, the USA has a problem with guns due to the wild west mentality of the country as a whole. The only way to see it is to look at it from another perspective, I have spoken the a few ex pat Americans here that "didn't get it" until they saw how the US acts and is portrayed from abroad, and lived in our relatively relaxed and relatively safe country, there's crime everywhere mate but the US differs greatly, from my experiences, to everywhere else in the West. And just so you know, guns are far from banned here, I shoot myself and my 2 brothers in law were Australasian trap and skeet Champions, as were their wives as well as avid hunters, the point is that i don't hate guns, i just don't think everyone should be armed to the teeth, the one big difference here is that we don't posses the mindset the US does, simple as that...

Interesting debate. Just a few points in response.

1) I remember Columbine very well. I don't recall Heston "campaigning for guns" whatever that means. He did speak out in response calls to restrict the rights of the law-abiding based on the actions of a couple of mentally-disturbed teenagers.

2) Any idiot can post a video. Some unhinged neanderthal threatening to shoot people no more represents the mentality of the NRA than videos of squids stunting on public roads represent the typical motorcyclist.

3) There hasn't been a homicide in my community in years. The percentage of homes with guns here is very, very high. Vast swaths of the country are like that. Unfortunately, there are pockets, mostly in inner cities, where the dominant culture does not respect life or property. The violence, gun and otherwise, in those areas is tragic, and skews the statistics for the country as a whole. The NRA opposes more laws restricting the rights of people like me and my neighbors when the majority of those causing problems don't respect the laws we have now. I don't have a problem with that "mentality."

4) Yes, the media, and the foreign media in particular, love to highlight stories that portray America and Americans in a bad light. That's OK. We're a big target and can take it. My advice: Don't take everything you see on TV at face value.
Where you come from is gone.
Where you thought you were going to, weren't never there.
And where you are ain't no good, unless you can get away from it.

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2014, 06:42:29 pm »
+1
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2014, 06:46:48 pm »

1  Yes we have home invasions but no where near as many and because there are far less guns, no one is "ready" to shoot anyone on either side, so the invasions are usually "less brutal",  less guns= less gun related crime. The biggest gun related problem we have here is in the Muslim communities of western Sydney

2 Do you really want me to tell you about the mentality of the NRA..?  , For instance, I will always remember Charlton Heston campaigning for guns straight after the columbine massacre, both sick and disgusting and a good example of the"mentality" i mentioned, selfish uncaring delusional  bastards would be more suitable, what about the NRA and gun shop owner that threatened to start shooting people when it was being talked about tightening gun control after another recent massacre..? The idiot posted the video on you tube, it was only up for a couple of days before Mr brain snap took it down, what an idiot, it was widely broadcast here to the inevitable disgust and ridicule of most Aussies as was the Heston debacle... I keep saying it, the USA has a problem with guns due to the wild west mentality of the country as a whole. The only way to see it is to look at it from another perspective, I have spoken the a few ex pat Americans here that "didn't get it" until they saw how the US acts and is portrayed from abroad, and lived in our relatively relaxed and relatively safe country, there's crime everywhere mate but the US differs greatly, from my experiences, to everywhere else in the West. And just so you know, guns are far from banned here, I shoot myself and my 2 brothers in law were Australasian trap and skeet Champions, as were their wives as well as avid hunters, the point is that i don't hate guns, i just don't think everyone should be armed to the teeth, the one big difference here is that we don't posses the mindset the US does, simple as that...

Interesting debate. Just a few points in response.

1) I remember Columbine very well. I don't recall Heston "campaigning for guns" whatever that means. He did speak out in response calls to restrict the rights of the law-abiding based on the actions of a couple of mentally-disturbed teenagers.

2) Any idiot can post a video. Some unhinged neanderthal threatening to shoot people no more represents the mentality of the NRA than videos of squids stunting on public roads represent the typical motorcyclist.

3) There hasn't been a homicide in my community in years. The percentage of homes with guns here is very, very high. Vast swaths of the country are like that. Unfortunately, there are pockets, mostly in inner cities, where the dominant culture does not respect life or property. The violence, gun and otherwise, in those areas is tragic, and skews the statistics for the country as a whole. The NRA opposes more laws restricting the rights of people like me and my neighbors when the majority of those causing problems don't respect the laws we have now. I don't have a problem with that "mentality."

4) Yes, the media, and the foreign media in particular, love to highlight stories that portray America and Americans in a bad light. That's OK. We're a big target and can take it. My advice: Don't take everything you see on TV at face value.

You simply dismissed my points, anyone can do that, and typically part of the problem..?  Heston was lambasted in your own country for his lack of empathy for turning up in Columbine and doing his "campaigning for guns"  as the president of the NRA, call it what you like, thats exactly what he was doing.. Thats like me bashing you to death with a base ball bat then setting up a baseball bat stall in front of your families house, selfish ignorant a-hole, being the president of the NRA you would have thought he may have possessed a little more common sense, decency and decorum....
The idiot that posted the video owned a gun range and was a NRA advocate, how that is irrelevant I have no Idea, it exactly points out the mentality I've been talking about. Nothing in common with your squid comment at all, more like a motorcycle dealership which buy the way, would NEVER condone any such behavior..
You miss the point completely, the reason you need guns to feel safe is because the bloody stupid laws and the power of the fools in the NRA and their lobby, combined with a gun totting mentality,  have been able to maintain the current status quo for far too long, simply look at the rest of the Western world for comparisons, they base everything on the most powerful tool they have, FEAR.
The media has no trouble portraying you in a "bad light" because its fact..!!, Did you even read the other comments?, you are 15 times more likely to be shot and killed in the USA than in my country, 15 times, thats absolutely amazing.  The media, apart from being a machine for the governments can't lie about the statistics and the stats are appalling. Your "foreign media" quote seems quite futile when you realize that the media reports we have here are American news stations and their stories, not ours, we see what you see, not some made up crap as the gun advocates and their spin machine would have you believe, thats just fantasy...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2014, 06:48:35 pm »
+1

Sorry Bobby but most of that last post from cj was opinion, not based on any relevant fact...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline nccb

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,145
  • 1974 CB750 Four
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2014, 06:52:36 pm »
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/news/2013/04/02/58293/interactive-measuring-gun-violence-across-the-50-states/

Its from 2013 so I am assuming the data used was fairly recent but this could be 2010 - 2012 data.  Not sure how quickly it is released to the public.

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,760
  • Northern Virginia
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2014, 06:58:09 pm »
Just the simple fact that you picture NRA like this shows you have no idea what is going on.

And I dont blame you, I get the same naive view from people from Europe, they just go with the lame stream media picture and don't try to understand any more than what the glass tit (aka TV) supplies.

Just flip it around and look at the shootings and you can see that the killing is never done by gun nuts, by people who shoot a lot or hunt a lot or make their own ammo. It is always some liberal nutcase, with low respect for life who has issues.  The typical right extremist - in current lingo it is a christian who pays taxes goes to church and has a gun or two - is never the culprit. But the liberal media always hope they can pin it on somebody like that.

Remember 02 snipping in DC, everybody believed it is a crazy good old white boy a supremacist of some sort - and everybody was surprise who it really was.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:03:49 pm by 70CB750 »

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,760
  • Northern Virginia
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2014, 07:06:27 pm »
OK, edit: The Hmong shooting was done by a hunter, but following the example of holly hussein who called Allah Akbar army base shooting workplace violence I can call the Hmong shooting Hobby violence and not a massacre.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2014, 07:41:55 pm »
Just the simple fact that you picture NRA like this shows you have no idea what is going on.

Our 60 minutes did an interview with one of the hierarchy in the NRA and tied him in knots, he contradicted himself that many times he ended up agreeing with the reporter after talking himself round in circles, it was great to watch him squirm. I picture the NRA, based on what i've seen of them first hand, their media release3s, their lobbying to Govt, their senate hearings and so on,  not what the media portrays, and just to make a point, Rupert Murdoch owns a large percentage of the Aussie media and is so pro USA he can't hide it, he also owns news outlets, news papers and Fox in the USA as well as media in the UK and is a dual Aussie US citizen, besides, the news relating to the USA we get here is CBS, ABC, CNN and the like, you would be surprised Prokop, most of our overseas news is actually from America, I watched Larry King last night for a while on his show "politiking", we get tons of USA news and current affairs shows. I've seen and read plenty of propaganda from the NRA and if you think they don't profit from a fear based campaign then maybe its you not seeing it for what it is... ;)  Seriously, its not nit picking, its not one sided media, actually it has nothing what so ever to do with any of that, its the fact that we are nothing like you guys in the way that we think as well as having a lot in common, I know that contradictory but its true, and therein lies the conflict, we are all the same people you guys {not all} have a totally different way of thinking and that includes guns, that gets us back to the "mentality" i spoke about earlier... Its not personal, just different, its quite funny, but most people i know think that "you have no idea what is going on" is am American thing...... ;D ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline cj750

  • Sure ain't no
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2014, 07:47:32 pm »
OK then, a few facts:

According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, the Australian Bureau of Criminology has openly acknowledged that Australia's adoption of stringent gun laws did not reduce violent crime. In fact, according to the DC Examiner, Australia's highest year for gun murder was in 2006 -- after the ban. Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research also accounted for 46% increase in assaults and a 6% increase in the robberies after the firearm ban was implemented. Sexual assault in Australia rose 30%, and overall violent crime rose over 42%.

As for foreigners not understanding Americans or what groups like the NRA stand for, yes, I largely blame the media. Much of what passes for journalism here is irresponsible rubbish. Its no challenge to cherry pick and edit stories from US sources to distort American culture and make the rare exception appear to be the norm. I've lived overseas (no, not specifically in Australia) and I've seen it.
Where you come from is gone.
Where you thought you were going to, weren't never there.
And where you are ain't no good, unless you can get away from it.

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,997
  • I refuse...
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2014, 07:51:20 pm »
Retro - as always, you make a very valid point: that the perception of America abroad is very different, and that there is a mentality here that is a large part of the problem.

I'm unsure which mentality is the problem though. If I may, with respect to anyone opposed to the NRA's objective-

In America, we have a Constitution that guarantees certain rights. Among those, is the right to bear arms. Very necessary when drafted, and many will argue, still very necessary. It has always been my clear understanding that when the US government, by virtue of our elected officials, attempt to overstep, withdraw or circumvent our rights, there is a strong adverse response. Passionate people come forth to be heard. I think truly that was Heston's point, not that gun violence isn't a tragedy, but that proposed new laws wouldn't actually accomplish a reduction in these events. I'd bet you too would be averse to any law that infringed upon your right, not privilege, if it wasn't likely to make a rats ass of a difference.

As for the diatribe from JeffSTL, his facts are completely incorrect. We have very strong gun laws. In fact, we have more damn laws on the books already than anyone could ever need. Problem is, they're not enforced. Simple as that. Our legislative dockets are filled with arbitrary, pointless laws that don't solve a problem. In fact, currently, our US Attorney General wants to grant clemency to previously convicted felons simply in an effort to reduce the numbers in our prisons: regardless of whether they belong there or not. Asinine? I think so.

So I go back to where you are: it's a mentality problem. Not a gun nut mentality problem, but a social plague of "oneness" and a wanton disregard for society's laws, morality and responsibility.

I'd venture a guess, that the number (as a per capita %) between Aus and the US of gun owners who use these tools in sporting, hunting, and sustenance is probably quite similar. If you then add the numbers who carry concealed for self-protection, we are probably not that far apart in ownership. Where our societies are firmly at odds is the "illegal" guns which are owned by, used by, and trafficked by criminals. These folks will never abide a current law, let alone a new law. So who then do new laws hurt? How do they help? They can't in any way that I see restore our social normality.

Here's a tidbit regarding this last nut job in California: the local Sheriff's department went to visit him several days prior at the behest of family/friends who warned Social Services about him (based upon his video postings) who in turn called Psych Services, who in turn called the Police. The police interviewed the kid. Then left! They made an in-field determination about this kid. So the system worked (screen for nut jobs, then deal with them before it happens). The Police officers failed. And now 6 are dead and 13 severely wounded.

Point is, that when the police are needed all to frequently they can't be where they need to, when they need to. That is why there is the need in many people's mind that self protection is an individual responsibility. I'm not saying they're right, that this excuses or dismisses the problem, but I am trying to give you an accurate, unbiased glimpse into a general culture.

Many have the mistaken impression that it is lawful to shoot any intruder into your home. This is completely and categorically false. You must, without exception, be in life threatening danger or in the position of imminent danger in order to use deadly force. Further, this must be present "absent of further evidence". Which means, if I come home and some guy is in my house, with my TV on his shoulder, I can not shoot him. The evidence is there that this is a robbery. Period. If I do shoot him, I'm going to jail. Plain and simple.

We make it possible to own guns, but we do have very strict laws about them and their use. But we don't have a good system to deal with the mentally sick, or criminal behavior. I think this "fear" by the average person is what drives the mentality for self protection. Guns aren't our problem, people are.

But every time someone uses a gun it fosters the flames of aversion into more rants about meaningless anecdotal evidence that doesn't solve or address the real problem (This is my opinion by the way). And then those who cherish their rights dig in. And we reach the impasse. And we look ridiculous. And we argue until it all happens again so we can repeat the same pointless cycle. Some day, maybe, we will figure it out or our society will recover and self-correct. But please don't stay away if this is inhibiting your interests to visit. It's still a great place because of our diversity and opposing views.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2014, 07:52:19 pm »
+1

Sorry Bobby but most of that last post from cj was opinion, not based on any relevant fact...
I was agreeing with him. I would never try to tell an Australian what it is like to live in Australia. I have met quite a few and I like them. I have lived and traveled around the U.S. and unless you live here and understand the culture, it is like watching Crocodile Dundee and thinking you know what Australia and  Australians are like.

Yes we have some drug and crime infested cities filled with violence. But it is a big place and these are small isolated pockets.  Most of the Country is quite tranquil and very safe.




   
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline JeffSTL

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 392
  • CB750 K6
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2014, 07:52:48 pm »
Retro- you hit the bullseye with your NRA remarks, but I'm shocked that you were shocked by the actions of a troll like Heston. The NRA is in the business of lobbying for gun manufacturers. They get their millions from gun manufactures to promote gun sales. Nothing more, nothing less. They could care less about their hapless member's ability to hunt, "defend themselves", sport shooting or anything else other than promoting the sales of guns.

Having a gun in your home makes everyone in that home more likley to be shot.
http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:59:10 pm by JeffSTL »

Offline kmb69

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,041
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2014, 07:59:54 pm »
Bailgang, Your analysis is right on target (pardon the pun). The root cause of the problem is not guns, the NRA, or "gun crazy rednecks". I also feel much safer in that crowd than certain others. It is very difficult to get the "facts" about most of these atrocities since 90% of the US news media (other than talk radio) is in the tank with the "progressives" of our society and are hell bent to protect their failing ideology. Even media outlets that get the closest to the truth are throttled by political correctness and/or the fear of delatorius claims of racism or sexism regardless of the perpetrator's etnicity or gender. Ninty-nine out of one hundred of these massacres are perpetrated by individuals associated with a particular demographic and/or were raised in a familial environment of a particular political persuasion and/or just obvious nut cases whose family refused to acknowlege and have them committed for help - NOT "gun crazy rednecks" or "NRA members" or "extreme right wingers" or "The Tea Party". This country has been plummeting downhill, like a snowball headed for hell, since the 1964 implementation of the "Great Society". Trillions of dollars flushed with NO positive results, results arguably an order of magnitude worse, and with no end in sight. Yes, Heston got slammed by the same anti gun people who were screaming "NRA" from the first news braodcast. JeffSTL almost got it right, "Unless we start acting like a" RESPONSIBLE "society and start working on the causes of these problems that end up effecting us all, these things are guaranteed to continue".

*********************
On February 11, 2014, P.J.Buchanan had the balls to write an article telling it like it is:

The more liberal the welfare state, the greater the disincentive to work and the more ruinous the impact upon a nation’s work ethic.

The CBO has just given us a statistical measure of that truth.

The HR 3200 subsidies, it said, will cause some to quit work, others to cut back on the hours they work, and others to hold off going to work, so as not to lose the benefits.

The cumulative impact of all these decisions will be equal to the loss of 2.5 million jobs by 2024. A devastating blow to an economy where the labor force participation is at a 30-year low.

The CBO has put a number on what everyone knows to be true: If people don’t have to work to provide the needs of their daily lives, some will drop out and become permanent charges on the public purse, deadbeats.

The father of modern liberalism, FDR, never disputed this. As he warned in 1935, welfare is "a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit."

This used to be called common sense. Growing up, we all knew or read that those who inherited great wealth often ended up never holding a "real job" and spent their days in a life of self-indulgence.

However, a related and larger question is raised by the CBO: If HR 3200 alone will cost the equivalent of 2.5 million lost jobs to the U.S. economy, what is the impact of our entire welfare state on the vitality and dynamism of the U.S. labor force?

As Robert Rector wrote in January, if we judge Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society only by the dollars spent to improve the lives of the poor and near-poor, an astronomical $20 trillion, it was a success. Rector describes its dimensions:

The federal government runs more than 80-means tested programs that provide cash, food, housing, medical care and targeted social services to poor and low-income Americans.

Government spent $916 billion on these programs in 2012 alone, and roughly 100 million Americans received aid from at least one of them, at an average cost of $9,000 per recipient. (That figure doesn’t include Social Security or Medicare.)

Federal and state welfare spending, adjusted for inflation, is 16 times greater than it was in 1964.

Yet, if we judge the Great Society by its goal, providing the poor with their basic family needs so they can go out into the marketplace and find jobs and join their fellow Americans, it has been, writes Rector, "a catastrophe."

Scores of millions of Americans are today less able to achieve self-sufficiency through work than were their grandparents.

And by providing for all the needs that the father used to provide for his family, the Great Society has helped make fathers superfluous. We have created a system where a teenage girl who becomes pregnant can have all her basic needs met by government. This is a primary cause of the rise in illegitimacy in America from 6 percent of all births in 1963 to 41 percent today, and to 53 percent among Hispanics and 73 percent among African-Americans. And that record illegitimacy rate is directly tied to the drug use rate, the dropout rate, the crime rate, and the incarceration rate.

If the goal of the Great Society was to turn America’s tax consumers into taxpayers, it has been a total failure. We have now a vast underclass of scores of millions who are dependent upon government for most or all of their basic needs, a class among whom many, if not most, have lost the ability to survive without government money, food, and shelter.

This is something new in America, something we did not know with the Irish boat people of the 1840s, the Okies in Dust Bowl days or during the Great Depression of the 1930s.

Monday’s New York Times reveals a relevant and startling fact: only 8 percent of the cab and rental car drivers in New York City are native-born Americans. Three times as many yellow cabdrivers in New York were born in Bangladesh than in the USA.

What is happening in America is that the vast cohort of working men and women, immigrants, illegal and legal, who have come in recent decades, 30 to 40 million, have displaced, have dispossessed, the native-born.

But we may be coming to the end of the line. From Detroit to Greece to Puerto Rico, government’s ability to expand the benefits of the welfare class by taxing the working and middle class is reaching its limit. Taxpayers are rebelling, budgets are falling dangerously out of balance, and the welfare state is beginning to buckle under the load.

Perhaps T. S. Eliot was right: "This is how the world ends/ Not with a bang but a whimper."
********************

The problem is definitely rooted in a failing human morality with an "I breathe, so I deserve" mentality. IMO

OK, off my pulpit now.

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,997
  • I refuse...
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2014, 08:01:19 pm »
OK then, a few facts:

According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, the Australian Bureau of Criminology has openly acknowledged that Australia's adoption of stringent gun laws did not reduce violent crime. In fact, according to the DC Examiner, Australia's highest year for gun murder was in 2006 -- after the ban.

To correct you CJ, I've read that study also. But if you read further, it clearly states that after 2006 Australia has seen a tremendous DROP in both violent and gun crime. In fact, Retro is not misstating their statistics at all. They are widely regarded as among the least crime-ridden (violent) countries globally. And this all came about after their ban.

I don't get it either. But it is true and indisputable. It flies in the face of wisdom but you cannot argue with the empirical evidence. Must be all the beer and hot chicks has found a means of chilling them out  :)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 08:08:00 pm by calj737 »
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,367
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2014, 08:08:01 pm »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs

The NRA supported the NFA along with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), which together created a system to federally license gun dealers and established restrictions on particular categories and classes of firearms. They understood some rational system was needed in accordance with their ficus on safety.

The anti gun groups became very militant and became hysterical calling for all types of unreasonable regulations.

The NRA had to react to this. Now, we have pro and anti groups pushing each other to the wall. At this point there is no rationality on either side, which I find sad.   
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline cj750

  • Sure ain't no
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2014, 08:57:20 pm »
Statistically, you're 10,000 times more likely to be killed by hitting a kangaroo while riding a motorcycle in Australia than in the USA. But you don't see Americans lecturing the Aussies about their Kangaroo Problem and sick Kangaroo Culture.

BTW, I've seen "Crocodile Dundee" and "The Road Warrior" so that pretty much makes me an expert on Australian culture.

On a more serious note, its truly great that we can debate an emotional topic on this forum without it degenerating into personal attacks and over-the-top rants. When more people can talk civilly about problems that divide us, we'll be closer to solving them.

And that's as close to a kumbaya moment as you'll get from me.
Where you come from is gone.
Where you thought you were going to, weren't never there.
And where you are ain't no good, unless you can get away from it.

Offline BeSeeingYou

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,913
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2014, 11:35:06 pm »
So this idea that keeps getting floated out there that's it's just the inner city gangs/ bad guys/ etc is just so much bullsh!t.  It's just the bad guys or the nutjobs and everyone else who owns the guns are the good guys.

Please carefully read what was written. Nobody said there weren't other incidences of gun violence, only that every day, every week these numbers far exceed the others. Yet no one seems to care about this epidemic.

Please do climb down off your pedestal and stop lecturing those who have different interests and let's try to constructively address the issue of the cause, not the results and statistics. Your posting of 2/3 of the deaths being from suicides is completely news to my ears. Are you saying that if guns didn't exist then suicides would stop? I find that absurd. Does the most recent lad in Santa Barbara count as a suicide since his death came as a result of self-inflicted gun violence? If so, then good. Chalk up tons more of the nut jobs taking their own lives so ewe don't spend a dime studying, putting them up in prison, psychiatric analysis and court room fees. Save the money and spend it on law enforcement to dissuade these evil doers from perpetrating their evil acts.

    Please do stop putting words in my mouth.  What I posted was that 1 in 3 gun related deaths are homicides and 2 in 3 are suicides.  It's a simple statistic readily available if you due a simple internet search and I have mentioned it before so it shouldn't be "news to your ears."  That you don't  seem to be able to accept this simple fact makes me wonder where you get your information.
    I mentioned nothing about suicides stopping if guns were not involved.  Like you said that would be absurd.  Why are you asking me about the guy in Santa Barbara?  I don't compile the statistics.  I would assume he would be listed as a suicide and the people he killed would be listed as homicide.   Throwing all this up there does allow you to get up on your pedestal and put words in my mouth.
  As far as the 32,000 number if anyone is wondering...it's just an average since the last stats only go up to 2012 but looking at he trends it has been rising for the most part for the last 10 years and was in the 31,000-32,000 range and trending upward so it would not surprise me if 32,000 was actually low.
   Someone else mentioned "justifiable homicides" and that number is quite low compared to the overall total...around 600 as an average.

At least our cars are getting safer...now it looks like guns will surpass cars as the leading cause of non-medical deaths in the U.S.
   
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 12:04:19 am by srust58 »

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2014, 12:04:37 am »
OK then, a few facts:

According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, the Australian Bureau of Criminology has openly acknowledged that Australia's adoption of stringent gun laws did not reduce violent crime. In fact, according to the DC Examiner, Australia's highest year for gun murder was in 2006 -- after the ban.

To correct you CJ, I've read that study also. But if you read further, it clearly states that after 2006 Australia has seen a tremendous DROP in both violent and gun crime. In fact, Retro is not misstating their statistics at all. They are widely regarded as among the least crime-ridden (violent) countries globally. And this all came about after their ban.

I don't get it either. But it is true and indisputable. It flies in the face of wisdom but you cannot argue with the empirical evidence. Must be all the beer and hot chicks has found a means of chilling them out  :)

Yes Cal, you would call that a welcome distraction... ;D 8)

Sorry CJ but you only read what you wanted to read there mate, and it was incorrect.... ;)

Statistically, you're 10,000 times more likely to be killed by hitting a kangaroo while riding a motorcycle in Australia than in the USA. But you don't see Americans lecturing the Aussies about their Kangaroo Problem and sick Kangaroo Culture.

BTW, I've seen "Crocodile Dundee" and "The Road Warrior" so that pretty much makes me an expert on Australian culture.

On a more serious note, its truly great that we can debate an emotional topic on this forum without it degenerating into personal attacks and over-the-top rants. When more people can talk civilly about problems that divide us, we'll be closer to solving them.

And that's as close to a kumbaya moment as you'll get from me.

You never see Roos in the cities CJ, I lived in the country for 7 years and saw plenty but never hit one on my bikes or car for that matter although i had friends that did, in cars, I don't know of any reports of them killing anyone though. I don't profess to be an American expert at all but i've explained this before, we are a very young country with little history, when i was at school i did projects on the American civil war, the declaration of independence , Paul Revere,  Indians, the Pilgrims, the Salem witch hunt and other very interesting history, we are generally "internationally" schooled here and generally know a reasonable amount about our coalition partners overseas, I know this differs greatly from the US school system but thats just the way it is here, I have always had an interest in World Politics, or maybe dislike is a better word but when the US puts itself out there as the "world police" they must expect scrutiny my friend.... ;)
Oh , and we don't ride Kangaroos to school either... ;D :P
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline BeSeeingYou

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,913
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2014, 12:20:02 am »
  Ninty-nine out of one hundred of these massacres are perpetrated by individuals associated with a particular demographic and/or were raised in a familial environment of a particular political persuasion and/or just obvious nut cases whose family refused to acknowlege and have them committed for help - NOT "gun crazy rednecks" or "NRA members" or "extreme right wingers" or "The Tea Party".

OK, off my toilet now.


There I fixed it for you.  Aside from all the other "facts" that you presented which I don't see any point repeating I am curious about how you came about this "99 out of 100 fact" Please do tell.  It wouldn't have anything to do with your ass would it? ;D

AJK

  • Guest
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2014, 01:08:17 am »
another one?

This is intriguing. So few words started this thread and now look. Dave what have you done?  :-\

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,979
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2014, 02:36:29 am »
every time I see your user name I think of AK47?

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,760
  • Northern Virginia
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2014, 03:08:10 am »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.

Offline JeffSTL

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 392
  • CB750 K6
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2014, 03:28:35 am »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.

Note the very important " 'was' basically an educational organization." That all changed when radicals overthrew the board of directors and ousted the leadership in 1977. Since then they have been nothing but a lobbying group for gun manufacturers and do the other things only to promote gun sales.

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,760
  • Northern Virginia
Re: gun massacre
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2014, 03:32:40 am »
The NRA was basically a educational organization for most of it's history. They were founded to promote Marksmanship and sponsored programs and materials. As a Boy Scout we were provided targets and training materials under an NRA program. They sponsored events and certified safety programs
 

Yes, that's the NRA I know.  They educated all my kids on gun safety and tought them to shoot - plus hundreds of other kids in our neighborhood.  We also get insurance through NRA for out shooting range to COA in the sue happy USA of today.  And NRA is in your corner in case like getting arrested for spelled shell in DC or similar crap the administration is willing to pull anytime they choose to.

Note the very important " 'was' basically an educational organization." That all changed when radicals overthrew the board of directors and ousted the leadership in 1977. Since then they have been nothing but a lobbying group for gun manufacturers and do the other things only to promote gun sales.

You don't say?  1977 I lived in Czechoslovakia, I am in USA since 90ties.  This is the only NRA I know. 

Maybe cut down on watching TV and actually get to know what you are talking about?