Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 27245 times)

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Offline dave500

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #100 on: May 30, 2014, 06:07:47 am »
it was always hard to get a hand gun permit here in Australia even before we had semi auto rifles and more than 5 round mags banned,you have to jump through hoops here to buy air rifle pellets!after the port Arthur killings here and the laws went tight bumper stickers soon came out "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns",and I think its ringing true now?google up all the Sydney shootings of late?mostly just drug thugs whose sir names wont be smith or jones fighting over territory?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 06:11:58 am by dave500 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #101 on: May 30, 2014, 06:13:46 am »
How about all of you pro-gun people offer some suggestions to help curb these violent actions.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2014, 06:16:56 am »
Another one where there were plenty of red flags if their family would quit living in denial and take some action beforehand.  ::)

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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #103 on: May 30, 2014, 06:29:49 am »
My point is that it doesn't make any difference why it's happening, it is happening and that is the problem, because of recent history as far as the me generation and guns go it's the unreality of the magic wand that makes the problem go away.
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2014, 06:40:13 am »
How about all of you pro-gun people offer some suggestions to help curb these violent actions.

I'd start with much stronger and much more sever penalties at the Federal level. I would also make it legal but not mandatory, for any teacher to arm the self AFTER proper training while on school grounds. These are punitive and preventive measures, but not cures.

In the home front of "cures" the only path I see is riddled with a very slippery slope, and that is Mental Health incarceration. I'll remind you of the Virginia Tech campus shooting in 2007. That individual had been previously under a 72 hour mental health hold. The doctors determined that he was able to self-medicate and this, presented no danger to society. As long as he self-medicated.

Now here's the tricky bit: at what point are we willing to abandon our civil liberties of Due Process and Presumption of Innocence in light of the potential saving of 10, 20 or 30,000 lives? Yes, it seems extraordinarily callous to say that, but in a country of 320,000,000, it's a rounding error of the population.

Had the State of VA incarcerated that shooter, you can bet your bottom dollar that the ACLU would have immediately filed suit against unlawful detention. Their best intentions notwithstanding, their result (similar to the ravings of the now hyper-political NRA) is to enable criminals not punish them. We worry more about criminal's right to fair and impartial trials than we concern ourselves with the victims.

You want less ongoing violence, step up the Penal system to the levels of Saudi Arabia, China, Korea, etc... Our prisons have long abandoned rehabilitation and become jungles filled with ultra-violent animals. At the cost and expense to the public safety. I concede that the none of the recent school shootings was perpetrated by an ex-con, but a huge portion of the violence that does occur, which in turn spurs the need (real or imagined) for self-protection. I have to think that this type of mentality is part of Oz's success.

Maybe Dave, Terry or Retro will chime in with comparisons on their penal system and it's effectiveness. But ours is broken, worthless, and in desperate need of overhauling.

I'm tired of hearing politicians proclaim their willingness to infringe on our Constitutional Rights under the guise of "saving just 1 child's life" when they are completely unwilling to do what's necessary to deal with the criminals already in the system. Start culling the herd, with extreme measures and dispatch. I think then you'll see a sudden switch in the level and frequency of street crime. Less street crime=less gun violence.

And add to that a media blackout on profiling and turning into a social celebrity these whackjob shooters. Don't even mention their names. Just like the pinhead who lit off a bomb in the Boston Marathon. Screw him. Strap him down and put a bullet or needle in him. Viking funeral and cast his ashes over a landfill.

Might just work-
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Offline dave500

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #105 on: May 30, 2014, 06:46:15 am »
I think its the "ME" generation that does these school massacres?youll always have murders thats part of life and always has been and always will be full stop,i like guns,havent owned one since the mid 80s and I had some nice units,a 1919 enfield 303,an anshutz .22 semi auto,a Mossberg 12 guage pump for a little while,we all had .22s,the ruger rotary mag semi auto was popular,we had punch ups and never was a rifle bought out,i think its a hand gun thing?the hand guns were always hard to obtain here but I bought my first .22 semi auto rifle at kmart(40 dollar stirling crap) and two boxes of bullets showing a paper license,and never ever was there any intent or hint or suggestion from my mates to use it in anger,had it been a hand gun?i think that's the difference?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 06:49:29 am by dave500 »

Offline mick7504

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #106 on: May 30, 2014, 06:48:13 am »
I'm thinking that maybe a blanket ban on Hand Guns and Semi Autos (incl Pump Action)
To have a Firearms license here in Oz for a Lever or Bolt Action Long Arm requires a high degree of scrutineering by the Firearms section of the Police Force.
Anyone that's got a Domestic Violence or an assault issue against their name can forget about it.

Hand Gun ownership carries very strict regulatory and compulsory
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #107 on: May 30, 2014, 06:49:59 am »
How about all of you pro-gun people offer some suggestions to help curb these violent actions.
oh, well I would say maybe start trying to treat the problem since all of the gun control laws so far are apparently failing. Makes perfect sense. The stringent laws that are in place have had little to no effect so let's just make more restrictions that will be ineffective. Let's call it a war on guns because we all know how effective the war on drugs is.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #108 on: May 30, 2014, 06:55:25 am »
How about all of you pro-gun people offer some suggestions to help curb these violent actions.
oh, well I would say maybe start trying to treat the problem since all of the gun control laws so far are apparently failing. Makes perfect sense. The stringent laws that are in place have had little to no effect so let's just make more restrictions that will be ineffective. Let's call it a war on guns because we all know how effective the war on drugs is.

it's no 'quick fix' that's for sure...
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #109 on: May 30, 2014, 06:58:40 am »
Oh , I failed to answer the question. I imagine it's severe mental instability, wide spread use of prescribed mood altering drugs and just piss poor attention to people with obvious mental problems. I have never made any plans to shoot anyone. I have always been able to work out my differences with words or on a rare occasion my hands.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:36:10 am by roach carver »

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #110 on: May 30, 2014, 07:01:02 am »
I think this quote from a recent movie sums up my view on 'Murica quite succinctly.

“This guy wants to tell me we're living in a community? Don't make me laugh. I'm living in America, and in America you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business."

Actually, America is a corporation, and business is not good. Make of that what you will.

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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #111 on: May 30, 2014, 07:01:16 am »
How about all of you pro-gun people offer some suggestions to help curb these violent actions.

I'd start with much stronger and much more sever penalties at the Federal level. I would also make it legal but not mandatory, for any teacher to arm the self AFTER proper training while on school grounds. These are punitive and preventive measures, but not cures.

In the home front of "cures" the only path I see is riddled with a very slippery slope, and that is Mental Health incarceration. I'll remind you of the Virginia Tech campus shooting in 2007. That individual had been previously under a 72 hour mental health hold. The doctors determined that he was able to self-medicate and this, presented no danger to society. As long as he self-medicated.

Now here's the tricky bit: at what point are we willing to abandon our civil liberties of Due Process and Presumption of Innocence in light of the potential saving of 10, 20 or 30,000 lives? Yes, it seems extraordinarily callous to say that, but in a country of 320,000,000, it's a rounding error of the population.

Had the State of VA incarcerated that shooter, you can bet your bottom dollar that the ACLU would have immediately filed suit against unlawful detention. Their best intentions notwithstanding, their result (similar to the ravings of the now hyper-political NRA) is to enable criminals not punish them. We worry more about criminal's right to fair and impartial trials than we concern ourselves with the victims.

You want less ongoing violence, step up the Penal system to the levels of Saudi Arabia, China, Korea, etc... Our prisons have long abandoned rehabilitation and become jungles filled with ultra-violent animals. At the cost and expense to the public safety. I concede that the none of the recent school shootings was perpetrated by an ex-con, but a huge portion of the violence that does occur, which in turn spurs the need (real or imagined) for self-protection. I have to think that this type of mentality is part of Oz's success.

Maybe Dave, Terry or Retro will chime in with comparisons on their penal system and it's effectiveness. But ours is broken, worthless, and in desperate need of overhauling.

I'm tired of hearing politicians proclaim their willingness to infringe on our Constitutional Rights under the guise of "saving just 1 child's life" when they are completely unwilling to do what's necessary to deal with the criminals already in the system. Start culling the herd, with extreme measures and dispatch. I think then you'll see a sudden switch in the level and frequency of street crime. Less street crime=less gun violence.

And add to that a media blackout on profiling and turning into a social celebrity these whackjob shooters. Don't even mention their names. Just like the pinhead who lit off a bomb in the Boston Marathon. Screw him. Strap him down and put a bullet or needle in him. Viking funeral and cast his ashes over a landfill.

Might just work-

Thanks calj737.
I agree we should have much stiffer penalties for those who commit crimes with guns and agree, for the most part, with your intentions and concerns...except for the arming of teachers. The only problem is none of this addresses the underlying causes of these problems. While I think that stiffer penalties and some sensible gun regulations (that have nothing to to with taking away your guns) can help a little in the short term, until we deal with the systemic and societal issues that bring people to violence the results will be marginal.

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #112 on: May 30, 2014, 07:02:47 am »
How about all of you pro-gun people offer some suggestions to help curb these violent actions.
oh, well I would say maybe start trying to treat the problem since all of the gun control laws so far are apparently failing. Makes perfect sense. The stringent laws that are in place have had little to no effect so let's just make more restrictions that will be ineffective. Let's call it a war on guns because we all know how effective the war on drugs is.

Roach - since Jeff asked openly for constructive ideas, offer some. Continued sarcasm doesn't produce results. If you've got some relevant ideas, offer them up. Sure, they won't get implemented by this forum, but at least it demonstrates your thoughtfulness to what is a social plague. Politics won't ever produce results. But men of good conscience can change the world for the better (that is to include women also). I'd rather be referred to as pro-gun rights, not pro-gun. I don't believe everyone should have a firearm. But for those that wish it and have been found to be lawfully eligible, I'm not opposed.

It will undoubtedly "backfire" sorry for the pun, as someone lawfully in possession will commit a crime with it, but I'd rather then rely on a proper judicial system than to eliminate the right.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #113 on: May 30, 2014, 07:04:36 am »
I think this quote from a recent movie sums up my view on 'Murica quite succinctly.

“This guy wants to tell me we're living in a community? Don't make me laugh. I'm living in America, and in America you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business."

Actually, America is a corporation, and business is not good. Make of that what you will.

That sounds about right.

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #114 on: May 30, 2014, 07:05:21 am »
We can't punish someone who's plan involves offing themselves at the end. You can't have much less value for your fellow man if you don't even value your own skin.

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #115 on: May 30, 2014, 07:12:56 am »
:) this is a busy thread. Apologies for the sarcasm. This is a hot topic and in the end we all want the same result. Maybe there is a blood test for crazy. If we can fix that I would say our problems are solved.

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #116 on: May 30, 2014, 07:22:56 am »
Yes, Jeff, allowing teachers to carry is a dicey thought. Although, how many lives could have been saved had a teacher or faculty member been armed and nearby when these terrible tragedies occurred?

I think it a dichotomy of logic and priority that we will protect our money in banks (paper after all) with armed guards, but won't protect our children (most precious assets and irreplaceable) with a similar resource.

Don't misunderstand, the thought of bullets whizz ing around in classrooms causes me grave concerns whether they are being fired by an assailant or in defense of a child. But I'd rather risk the defense side of huge coin in the hopes that this presence creates sufficient deterrent to future evil doers.

And you are right, how to solve the problem of the mentally deranged to persuade or prevent them from undertaking these acts? It's a $1,000,000 question for certain. Morality? Accountability? Upbringing? Who the eff knows? I do believe that if we truly began a much harsher effort at ridding our streets of drugs and those involved in that industry, crime would drop. I believe there is a very tight bond with street crime and the fear of a citizenship that then feels the need to arm themselves for self-protection. Is it the ultimate answer: No. But again, I think it's a proper starting place and will have a benefit.

You can't breed out evil. They tried that in Salem, MA a few hundred years ago. Didn't work so well then, and I'm not interested in Round 2 of that screenplay. Our mental health system wants to label everything as a disorder and create legal loopholes for criminal behavior to be justified by the same. We've moved from a nation of independence to a nation of whiners and excuse-riddled narcissists. Spare the rod and spoil the nation. Not in my household.

If you want the rights that the Constitution provides, you MUST be willing to suffer at their hands as well. Life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness is not a guarantee. You want guarantees, move to China or Korea or some other social tyranny. But don't complain about your lack of rights and freedoms when you get there. It's this fine edged balance of freedom and rights that makes this science experiment we call a country so unique. We've got problems that were unforeseen then, and we don't know how to deal with the, as we move to more "progressive" ideas of social justice. I just don't see the merits bearing fruit in these ideals. I'm not efforting to disparage someone else's viewpoints, I'm just making the comparisons for sake of substance on my opinions.

Between the internet (thanks, Al Gore) Twitter, Smartphones, globalization, terrorism, and immigration problems globally, how do you stop the tide? Laws aren't the answers. A major restructuring might be, but what are you willing to sacrifice that's dear to you in exchange for something to which you're adamantly opposed? Me, nothing. I'll take my lumps to enjoy what little sweets I find daily. But that's me. I'm a pretty self-reliant guy and live a very modest lifestyle out of intention. I want nothing from the government as a product of "leave me the hell alone" and I'll vote my conscience every opportunity. The outcome, I'll live through.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline grcamna2

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #117 on: May 30, 2014, 07:29:57 am »
:) this is a busy thread. Apologies for the sarcasm. This is a hot topic and in the end we all want the same result. Maybe there is a blood test for crazy. If we can fix that I would say our problems are solved.

Roach C.,
 I like what you said just a min. or 2 earlier  :)... about being able to "work out our differences with words" I Fully Agree with you on that one  ;) I'm hoping(and praying) that the other party slows down just a little and starts to listen; I've always found that to be the toughest part for me(and I mean for me personally too,I need to slow down)..,they sometimes just refuse to listen to reason and it takes a lot of 'coaxing' em to get there  ::)  :-X
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:35:35 am by grcamna2 »
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Offline kmb69

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #118 on: May 30, 2014, 07:36:05 am »
  Ninty-nine out of one hundred of these massacres are perpetrated by individuals associated with a particular demographic and/or were raised in a familial environment of a particular political persuasion and/or just obvious nut cases whose family refused to acknowlege and have them committed for help - NOT "gun crazy rednecks" or "NRA members" or "extreme right wingers" or "The Tea Party".

OK, off my toilet now.


There I fixed it for you.  Aside from all the other "facts" that you presented which I don't see any point repeating I am curious about how you came about this "99 out of 100 fact" Please do tell.  It wouldn't have anything to do with your ass would it? ;D
I was actually giving the left of center the benefit of any doubt. I challenge you to name just one of the mass murderers in recent years that does not come from one or more of the categories as I described. Actually surprised at the volume of venom blowing from your arse since, "Life...it's just a bunch of stuff that happens." Get a grip man, take control of your life. Try accepting some personal responsibility.  ;D

Root cause of the violence:
The welfare state has propagated the disintegration of the family and our friends to the left who cannot accept personal responsibility for their own lives. :-[

And maybe all the "brain" drugs (talk about a corporate racket) our kids are getting for ADD and such instead of the disciplinary actions actually needed. Guarantee you if I had come home from school diagnosed with any such malady, my Dad would have seen to it that I was cured overnight.

What is our government doing about it? http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/22/gun-control-obama-nra/1851643/

+1 nightpoison


Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #119 on: May 30, 2014, 07:41:44 am »
Some of my ideas-

Short term-
I think that all guns should be registered. Old and new. Every one. We have to register our cars why not guns?  Some might say, "well the criminals won't register a gun" and they a correct, so, after all guns are registered, anyone caught at any time with an unregistered weapon would be fined $5000. If caught again jail time and loss of the right to own a gun. Owning a gun comes with great responsibility and I think lawful gun owners would want to shoulder that responsibility to protect their right.

 I think anyone who doesn't properly secure their guns so they stay out of the hands of criminals, kids or crazies should have their right taken away and/or face charges depending upon the circumstances of the case. If your gun is stolen report it immediately. Since it would be registered it would be possible to track if used in a crime or otherwise confiscated.

Long term-
Most gun crimes are domestic violence and gang activity. Until we deal with the societal problems that cause these, everything else is wasting time. We have to address poverty, income inequality, lack of mental health services, education inequality, lack of upward mobility, etc, etc, etc.

I fear that if we continue to do nothing serious gun bans will be the only option left.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #120 on: May 30, 2014, 07:45:21 am »
  Ninty-nine out of one hundred of these massacres are perpetrated by individuals associated with a particular demographic and/or were raised in a familial environment of a particular political persuasion and/or just obvious nut cases whose family refused to acknowlege and have them committed for help - NOT "gun crazy rednecks" or "NRA members" or "extreme right wingers" or "The Tea Party".

OK, off my toilet now.


There I fixed it for you.  Aside from all the other "facts" that you presented which I don't see any point repeating I am curious about how you came about this "99 out of 100 fact" Please do tell.  It wouldn't have anything to do with your ass would it? ;D
I was actually giving the left of center the benefit of any doubt. I challenge you to name just one of the mass murderers in recent years that does not come from one or more of the categories as I described. Actually surprised at the volume of venom blowing from your arse since, "Life...it's just a bunch of stuff that happens." Get a grip man, take control of your life. Try accepting some personal responsibility.  ;D

Root cause of the violence:
The welfare state has propagated the disintegration of the family and our friends to the left who cannot accept personal responsibility for their own lives. :-[

And maybe all the "brain" drugs (talk about a corporate racket) our kids are getting for ADD and such instead of the disciplinary actions actually needed. Guarantee you if I had come home from school diagnosed with any such malady, my Dad would have seen to it that I was cured overnight.

What is our government doing about it? http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/22/gun-control-obama-nra/1851643/

+1 nightpoison

Absolutely none of this is constructive.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2014, 07:45:44 am »
I said it earlier, mass shootings are mostly done by liberals, or at least by people who vote democrats.  They take a fetus as a "thing" they have the right to dispose of as they please and human being is for them another "thing". 

The pile of dead bodies is always bigger behind those who want to save the world and make it a better place than behind greedy capitalists. 

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2014, 07:50:03 am »
I said it earlier, mass shootings are mostly done by liberals, or at least by people who vote democrats.  They take a fetus as a "thing" they have the right to dispose of as they please and human being is for them another "thing". 

The pile of dead bodies is always bigger behind those who want to save the world and make it a better place than behind greedy capitalists.

Again, nothing constructive.

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2014, 07:51:13 am »
I am not for a blanket registry purely from the historical issues that have come with registries. They usually proceed confiscation. The current administration might not push for it but that would be the logical next step.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2014, 07:53:05 am »
Just a reality, it is good to know who you are dealing with.