Topic: gun massacre

[Retro Rocket]

Sandy Hook was in 2012, 74 school shootings since....   {none here}

[BobbyR]

Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle 

The deported people were not "Criminals" in the normal sense. Most were political dissidents. Many of them Irish. They were not a menace to Society, they were a menace to the Crown.  They had to be self sufficent  The "Animals" were left behind.

[70CB750]

Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle 

The deported people were not "Criminals" in the normal sense. Most were political dissidents. Many of them Irish. They were not a menace to Society, they were a menace to the Crown.  They had to be self sufficent  The "Animals" were left behind.

IMO it influenced the gene pool in USA, the free spirited and adventurous people moved in.  I know the republican forces of Österreichisch-Ungarische Monarchie emigrated to America (mainly Chicago) after 1848.

I wonder if Australians will buy the theory of the gene pool too 

[BobbyR]

The early Australians needed to be self sufficient and strong. It takes a lot make something out of nothing. The strong and capable survived.  The same situation as the early settlers of the U.S. 

[70CB750]

The early Australians needed to be self sufficient and strong. It takes a lot make something out of nothing. The strong and capable survived.  The same situation as the early settlers of the U.S.

I meant more the convicts UK deported to Australian penal colonies 

[MCRider]

Not to mention dodging drop bears.
http://australianmuseum.net.au/drop-bear

[70CB750]

The early Australians needed to be self sufficient and strong. It takes a lot make something out of nothing. The strong and capable survived.  The same situation as the early settlers of the U.S.

I meant more the convicts UK deported to Australian penal colonies 

Weeell, I looked it up and the numbers are negligible, also the deportable crimes speak more of a will to survive than really criminal mind.

Wiki says over the period of  80 years more than 165,000 convicts, compared to Ellis Island that's just a trickle.

[MCRider]

I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

[Duke McDukiedook]

http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306

Good read about the recent shooting in Las Vegas and why it may not be a good idea to be a packing C&C.
BTW, I am a gun proponent but personally find no reason to feel I need to carry on my person in everyday life.
The above article confirms and brings it home more that I will still probably not want to C&C.

With the passage of the new state law here in Kansas I may be forced to however because under the new law anyone can bring guns anywhere except the state capital. And that is the one place I think you should be allowed to openly brandish guns.

[Prez1967]

http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306

Good read about the recent shooting in Las Vegas and why it may not be a good idea to be a packing C&C.
BTW, I am a gun proponent but personally find no reason to feel I need to carry on my person in everyday life.
The above article confirms and brings it home more that I will still probably not want to C&C.

Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

Im a huge firearm enthusiast.  I agree that not everyone should have the right to bear arms.  I'm all for stricter gun laws as long as law abiding citizens can still buy what they want.  I live in MD, a very strict state when it comes to firearm laws.  I would have started growing my SBR/SBS/Suppressor collection had the laws not changed on October 1st.  I cant see why I shouldnt be able to buy such weapons considering I already own similar style weapons.  I agree that they shouldnt be readily available to whomever/whenever. 

Im a CCW holder, i've been fingerprinted, taxed, background checked, taxed, documented and (voluntarily) train (professionally) so that I can be a safe gun owner.  The last thing I want is for someone in my family to hurt themselves accidentally or commit a crime with one of my guns (i'm the only one with access to the safe and they are always locked up and empty).

I'd willingly have a sheriff come by and inspect my collection's status, my mental health, etc if it meant I could continue my hobby. 

Just like hot rodding is a freedom I enjoy safely based on the government's and my state's laws... this is no different.

[JeffSTL]

I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

First, Australians and Americans are both human. I would imagine that the percentage of "crazy" is similar in both populations, but for some reason the Australian "crazies" don't shoot the place up. I wonder why? What is the difference? Hmmm...

Secondly, to suggest our 74 school shootings in just the past year and a half to Australia's ZERO is statiscally insignificant is just plain ridiculous. Zero is the only acceptable statistic and if we aren't doing everything we can to get closer to that number, we are failing the children in this country. We are not talking about flipping coins.

How and why is it possible for a 15 year old kid in Portland to have access to an AR-15, a 9mm and hundreds of rounds of ammo?

[Duke McDukiedook]

Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

 





I am not quite following what you say about being a civlilian sheepdog, please elaborate on this comment.

[MCRider]

Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

 





I am not quite following what you say about being a civlilian sheepdog, please elaborate on this comment.

IF I may, a sheepdog is a dog that watches over sheep. A policeman would be considered a sheepdog. A non-Policeman would be considered a civilian sheepdog. Or so I think.

[Prez1967]

Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

Its a term that was coined by one of the gun reviewers on Youtube... basically someone who's a legal gun owner that protects himself and those around him through the use of deadly force when the situation requires it. 

Had he the opportunity to run and other people continued to get hurt, i would imagine he would feel some remorse for those injured/killed while he was safely living the rest of his life.  I imagine he saw an opportunity to stop the violence and figured he would "save the day" or at least offer a service to himself and others around him but he paid the ultimate price.  Of course he may have not been able to run... in that case, at least he had some kind of means to defend himself other than taking his shoe off and tossing it at the gunman. 

he had 5 seconds to act... we'll have (God willing) 50 years to pick it apart and say what we would (or wouldnt) have done...
 





I am not quite following what you say about being a civlilian sheepdog, please elaborate on this comment.

IF I may, a sheepdog is a dog that watches over sheep. A policeman would be considered a sheepdog. A non-Policeman would be considered a civilian sheepdog. Or so I think.

[cj750]

I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

First, Australians and Americans are both human. I would imagine that the percentage of "crazy" is similar in both populations, but for some reason the Australian "crazies" don't shoot the place up. I wonder why? What is the difference? Hmmm...

Secondly, to suggest our 74 school shootings in just the past year and a half to Australia's ZERO is statiscally insignificant is just plain ridiculous. Zero is the only acceptable statistic and if we aren't doing everything we can to get closer to that number, we are failing the children in this country. We are not talking about flipping coins.

How and why is it possible for a 15 year old kid in Portland to have access to an AR-15, a 9mm and hundreds of rounds of ammo?

BTW, you know that "74" number is totally bogus, right?
It includes use of firearms in self-defense from attackers, suicides, drug deals gone bad in school parking lots after hours, and some incidents that can't be independently verified as ever happening at all. http://www.nationalreview.com/node/380108/print
Yes, there have been a few events where a gunman has simply walked into a school and opened fire. Those are undeniably tragic and have been well-publicized. I agree that zero should be the goal. But suggesting that  there have been 74 recent incidents of what the general public considers "school shootings" is wildly misleading. While misleading people may be an effective tactic to advance a cause, but its not a constructive way to solve an actual problem. (To be clear, I'm pointing a finger at the people who put out the bogus number, not anyone who innocently makes reference to it.)

[Retro Rocket]

I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

First, Australians and Americans are both human. I would imagine that the percentage of "crazy" is similar in both populations, but for some reason the Australian "crazies" don't shoot the place up. I wonder why? What is the difference? Hmmm...

Secondly, to suggest our 74 school shootings in just the past year and a half to Australia's ZERO is statiscally insignificant is just plain ridiculous. Zero is the only acceptable statistic and if we aren't doing everything we can to get closer to that number, we are failing the children in this country. We are not talking about flipping coins.

How and why is it possible for a 15 year old kid in Portland to have access to an AR-15, a 9mm and hundreds of rounds of ammo?

BTW, you know that "74" number is totally bogus, right?
It includes use of firearms in self-defense from attackers, suicides, drug deals gone bad in school parking lots after hours, and some incidents that can't be independently verified as ever happening at all. http://www.nationalreview.com/node/380108/print
Yes, there have been a few events where a gunman has simply walked into a school and opened fire. Those are undeniably tragic and have been well-publicized. I agree that zero should be the goal. But suggesting that  there have been 74 recent incidents of what the general public considers "school shootings" is wildly misleading. While misleading people may be an effective tactic to advance a cause, but its not a constructive way to solve an actual problem. (To be clear, I'm pointing a finger at the people who put out the bogus number, not anyone who innocently makes reference to it.)

To say those figures are bogus or insignificant is just plain ignorant and stupid, sorry guys but thats just total bullsh1t, look at it how you want, you"ve totally missed the point, we have still had none in that period and none i can even remember at all, ever.   The schools are just one example and a disgusting statistic at that, what other stats would you like, you'll still find NO gun stats that come close to ours no matter how you like to look at it and there are still plenty of guns here.... 1 shooting in a school is far too many, 74 should be a national disgrace, regardless of how they occurred.... referring to me as being "innocent" to whats going on is annoying and patronizing, the number is insignificant, the point was it should be a national disgrace and something should be being done about it, how can the worlds largest economy and "protectors" of the free world be so damn violent, its completely hypocritical..

In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

Ron, thats pretty naive mate, i don't know anyone that would believe that statement for one minute, its laughable, we aren't talking about war , these are SCHOOLS.....unbelievable...... And it wasn't a decade, it was in around a year and a half which makes it all the more worse.

[Terry in Australia]

Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle 

Yeah mate, as  you and Bobby mentioned, most of those "convicts" who were transported to Oz weren't actually criminals, but just really poor people who had to steal to survive long before welfare payments and public housing, or in the case of my ancestors, Irish rebels thrown out of their own country by English invaders.

Of course, Britain transported around 50,000 convicts to their North American colonies. In the 1700's, around 25% of immigrants into North America were British convicts, who were sold to land owners as laborers, before American land owners started importing slaves from Africa.

The US now has more convicted felons (in and out of jail) than Oz has people, so I guess the US has the worlds largest prison colony now? Somehow though, I don't think that your criminals are going to turn the US into some kind of paradise any time soon............. Cheers, Terry.

[MCRider]

"In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

Ron, thats pretty naive mate, i don't know anyone that would believe that statement for one minute, its laughable, we aren't talking about war , these are SCHOOLS.....unbelievable...... And it wasn't a decade, it was in around a year and a half which makes it all the more worse."

Gotta admit my mistake, taking 2012 as 2002. Doesn't interrupt my point however. I think its naive to think that any biological population doesn't have a share of crazies in it. The actions of this group are hardly predictable, nor will they occur in anything but random order. Some Pops will be over represented in violence from time to time, others under represented.. The Law of Large Numbers indicating that we simply don't have a big enough sample to use for anything other than flailing in the dark.

IF these people don't have access to guns, they will use the next weapon in line, knives, explosives, vehicles, whatever, to satisfy their psychosis.

A little off track but interesting to me, is that I found in the last 10+ years the US schoolage population has increased considerably from 60,M or so to 88M. The demographics has changed considerably too. Injecting stress into the pop.

Seems in Aus its been about flat at 5M for that time with little demographics changing. A utopia for school admin. 

[cj750]

"Facts" and "truth" are simply a distraction from the real argument, which is how you feel about the topic. Got it.

To say those figures are bogus or insignificant is just plain ignorant and stupid, sorry guys but thats just total bullsh1t, look at it how you want, you"ve totally missed the point, we have still had none in that period and none i can even remember at all, ever.   The schools are just one example and a disgusting statistic at that, what other stats would you like, you'll still find NO gun stats that come close to ours no matter how you like to look at it and there are still plenty of guns here.... 1 shooting in a school is far too many, 74 should be a national disgrace, regardless of how they occurred.... referring to me as being "innocent" to whats going on is annoying and patronizing, the number is insignificant, the point was it should be a national disgrace and something should be being done about it, how can the worlds largest economy and "protectors" of the free world be so damn violent, its completely hypocritical..

[JeffSTL]

Based on this conversation, I'm wondering if you guys beyond our borders are beginning to see the problem here. Everyone can agree there is a problem, but can't agree upon a cause or a solution.

It is almost purely political and the majority of us suffer at the hands of idiologs. The gun violence debate is not much different than the healthcare debate. Pretty much everyone agrees that our healthcare system doesn't work, but every suggestion about how to fix it was shot down. Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no. When you paint one side as evil it is impossible to compromise.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yikes, we have more people in our prison system than people in Oz. That is scary.
And a disproportional amount of those just happen to be black.

Approximately 12%-13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 40% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).[1]

Huh.

[70CB750]

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

[JeffSTL]

Btw- the national review...great source for unbiased news, ha! I had the misfortune of trying to read through the links posted in the story. The links to disputed information took you to tweets, which then had links to stories that were supposed to disprove the stats. Crack journalism and fine work indeed. Apparently, that guy, Charles Johnson, thinks that if one kid shoots another kid in school, but they were in a gang, it doesn't count as a "school shooting."

The instance where a college kid is claiming self defense...he was involved in a fight, left the fight, went to his car to retrieve a gun, returned and fired. You'd have to live in a strange world to call this self defense. If he could get to his car, he could drive away. Returning and shooting is revenge, not self defense.

We can nitpick stories and numbers, but all of it is simply distraction from the problem. I also don't understand why some people seem to want to seperate the however many dozen school or mass public shootings from the other 30,000 or so deaths that come at the end of a gun barrel. We should want to attempt to keep them all from happening. It shouldn't matter if it's a random mass shooting, domestic, suicide, gang, or criminal activity.

I'm also so damn tired of hearing the knife or car analogy. The Seattle shooter turned to a large knife after his shotgun malfunction. The knife was quickly taken from him and no one else was injured.

[JeffSTL]

Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

If Obama #$%* a thousand golden Ronnie Reagans, you'd still hate him.

[70CB750]

Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

If Obama #$%* a thousand golden Ronnie Reagans, you'd still hate him.

You are the one speaking of hate,  I only think he is a very poorly performing president.