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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #350 on: June 08, 2014, 08:02:38 pm »
While I'm sure violent video games and movies are not helpful, they do have the same games and movies in the rest of the world, and yet, they do not have the same problems. So, I'm pretty sure they can be ruled out as a contributing factor.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #351 on: June 08, 2014, 08:12:01 pm »
**Yawn**

So have you buncha geniuses solved all of Uhmuricuhs problems on this thread yet?

No? I am totally, seriously surprised.   ;)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #352 on: June 09, 2014, 01:08:19 am »
Terry - you're not tripping me up. Brenda Spencer used a .22 rifle in 1979, Charles Whitman committed his crime in 1966, and Muhammed and Malvo used an AR in 2002. Not exactly recent history nor emblematic of a long range rifle sniper.

No mate, it's still happening, I just used those three as well known examples of whacko's shooting at people from a distance. Here's another one from April this year. Cheers, Terry.

http://www.ozarksfirst.com/story/d/story/kc-suspect-serial-sniper-in-6-highway-shootings/28170/DTmdVnUSFEmyeuMyzf9VMg
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Offline dave500

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #353 on: June 09, 2014, 02:22:00 am »
seven thousand dollar reward?wow like don't break the bank?

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #354 on: June 09, 2014, 03:23:33 am »
seven thousand dollar reward?wow like don't break the bank?

You can buy a lot of beer for 7 grand Dave, I wish I knew who the sniper was and I'd dob him in for sure! ;D
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #355 on: June 09, 2014, 03:36:41 am »
I've read this thread with interest, but wondered if I had much to contribute. I tend to see all sides and so thus far have refrained from contributing. On reflection, I would like to offer the following, but completely in the context of IMHO, and that is that Gun posession is not directly linked to gun crime.
I offer as an example my neighbours the Swiss. In Switzerland they have one of the highest gun posession (as opposed to ownership) rates in the world estimated at 1.2  to 3 million for a population of just under 8 million people.
Despite that, in 2010 there were only 40 homicides involving firearms.
I think, and of course am open to discussion / argument, that much has to do with the sense of fairness in society. I believe that there will alway be individuals who live in  societies where they perceive themselves to be slighted or disadvantaged  will take extreme measures to make their point, at the expense of others.
Perhaps Switzerland has a notion of democracy such that most citizens feel included and not disillusioned ?

Kev


Same in countries of former Czechoslovakia.  The guns were very restricted prior to 89 - only police, military and sports clubs could have guns and the overall condition to get a gun also included being politically involved.  Means you had to be a communist or closely colaborate with the regime.
 
That changed after 1989, as far as i know, since I don't live there anymore, you have to pass a test/training and you get gun buying permit, after you buy the gun, you register it and you and the gun have a 5 year permit that has to be renewed.  Getting the buying permit was not hard, I done it once.  Still there is not much shooting, it more involves hunters hurting each other than deliberate "going postal".  But you could tell there is a lot gun owning people, some just because they can and it is part of the freedom, some are hunters and there is a lot of sport shooters who compete in biatlon and sport competition in general.

The area is of course the fighting turf for mafias from south (yougoslavians, italians) and east (russians, ukrainans) and these guys every so often settle problems with kalaschnikovs, but that's crime scene, that does not really count.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #356 on: June 11, 2014, 09:39:03 am »
In May 1967, two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill, prompting then-Gov. Ronald Reagan to comment, "There's no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons."
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #357 on: June 12, 2014, 02:26:40 am »
Sandy Hook was in 2012, 74 school shootings since.... :o  {none here}
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #358 on: June 12, 2014, 05:32:54 am »
Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle  ::)
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #359 on: June 12, 2014, 06:20:21 am »
Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle  ::)

The deported people were not "Criminals" in the normal sense. Most were political dissidents. Many of them Irish. They were not a menace to Society, they were a menace to the Crown.  They had to be self sufficent  The "Animals" were left behind.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #360 on: June 12, 2014, 06:39:39 am »
Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle  ::)

The deported people were not "Criminals" in the normal sense. Most were political dissidents. Many of them Irish. They were not a menace to Society, they were a menace to the Crown.  They had to be self sufficent  The "Animals" were left behind.

IMO it influenced the gene pool in USA, the free spirited and adventurous people moved in.  I know the republican forces of Österreichisch-Ungarische Monarchie emigrated to America (mainly Chicago) after 1848.

I wonder if Australians will buy the theory of the gene pool too  ;D

Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #361 on: June 12, 2014, 06:56:51 am »
The early Australians needed to be self sufficient and strong. It takes a lot make something out of nothing. The strong and capable survived.  The same situation as the early settlers of the U.S. 
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #362 on: June 12, 2014, 07:03:52 am »
The early Australians needed to be self sufficient and strong. It takes a lot make something out of nothing. The strong and capable survived.  The same situation as the early settlers of the U.S.

I meant more the convicts UK deported to Australian penal colonies  ;D

Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #363 on: June 12, 2014, 07:34:57 am »
Thanks, Boys, for raining on the parade of trying to pay the blokes in Oz a compliment for rising from very meager beginnings to establishing a pretty reasonable and hospitable environ, despite the poisonous spiders, snakes, birds, frogs and fish that prefer homo sapiens to sea mammals.

Learn to lighten up a bit, eh? Hopefully our amigos from 'Down under got the point
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Offline MCRider

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #364 on: June 12, 2014, 07:49:01 am »
Not to mention dodging drop bears.
http://australianmuseum.net.au/drop-bear
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #365 on: June 12, 2014, 07:52:57 am »
The early Australians needed to be self sufficient and strong. It takes a lot make something out of nothing. The strong and capable survived.  The same situation as the early settlers of the U.S.

I meant more the convicts UK deported to Australian penal colonies  ;D


Weeell, I looked it up and the numbers are negligible, also the deportable crimes speak more of a will to survive than really criminal mind.

Wiki says over the period of  80 years more than 165,000 convicts, compared to Ellis Island that's just a trickle.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 07:54:51 am by 70CB750 »

Offline MCRider

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #366 on: June 12, 2014, 08:00:57 am »
I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #367 on: June 12, 2014, 08:43:13 am »
http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306

Good read about the recent shooting in Las Vegas and why it may not be a good idea to be a packing C&C.
BTW, I am a gun proponent but personally find no reason to feel I need to carry on my person in everyday life.
The above article confirms and brings it home more that I will still probably not want to C&C.

With the passage of the new state law here in Kansas I may be forced to however because under the new law anyone can bring guns anywhere except the state capital. And that is the one place I think you should be allowed to openly brandish guns.
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Offline Prez1967

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #368 on: June 12, 2014, 09:10:28 am »
http://gawker.com/its-really-hard-to-be-a-good-guy-with-a-gun-1588660306

Good read about the recent shooting in Las Vegas and why it may not be a good idea to be a packing C&C.
BTW, I am a gun proponent but personally find no reason to feel I need to carry on my person in everyday life.
The above article confirms and brings it home more that I will still probably not want to C&C.


Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

Im a huge firearm enthusiast.  I agree that not everyone should have the right to bear arms.  I'm all for stricter gun laws as long as law abiding citizens can still buy what they want.  I live in MD, a very strict state when it comes to firearm laws.  I would have started growing my SBR/SBS/Suppressor collection had the laws not changed on October 1st.  I cant see why I shouldnt be able to buy such weapons considering I already own similar style weapons.  I agree that they shouldnt be readily available to whomever/whenever. 

Im a CCW holder, i've been fingerprinted, taxed, background checked, taxed, documented and (voluntarily) train (professionally) so that I can be a safe gun owner.  The last thing I want is for someone in my family to hurt themselves accidentally or commit a crime with one of my guns (i'm the only one with access to the safe and they are always locked up and empty).

I'd willingly have a sheriff come by and inspect my collection's status, my mental health, etc if it meant I could continue my hobby. 

Just like hot rodding is a freedom I enjoy safely based on the government's and my state's laws... this is no different.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #369 on: June 12, 2014, 09:34:57 am »
I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

First, Australians and Americans are both human. I would imagine that the percentage of "crazy" is similar in both populations, but for some reason the Australian "crazies" don't shoot the place up. I wonder why? What is the difference? Hmmm...

Secondly, to suggest our 74 school shootings in just the past year and a half to Australia's ZERO is statiscally insignificant is just plain ridiculous. Zero is the only acceptable statistic and if we aren't doing everything we can to get closer to that number, we are failing the children in this country. We are not talking about flipping coins.

How and why is it possible for a 15 year old kid in Portland to have access to an AR-15, a 9mm and hundreds of rounds of ammo?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 09:40:31 am by JeffSTL »

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #370 on: June 12, 2014, 09:52:40 am »
Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

 





I am not quite following what you say about being a civlilian sheepdog, please elaborate on this comment.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #371 on: June 12, 2014, 09:57:27 am »
Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

 





I am not quite following what you say about being a civlilian sheepdog, please elaborate on this comment.
IF I may, a sheepdog is a dog that watches over sheep. A policeman would be considered a sheepdog. A non-Policeman would be considered a civilian sheepdog. Or so I think.
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Offline Prez1967

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #372 on: June 12, 2014, 11:10:02 am »
Thats a risk one takes when deciding to be a civilian sheepdog.... Very sad to hear about that situation.  Had he shot from cover/concealment, he would be home with his family.

Its a term that was coined by one of the gun reviewers on Youtube... basically someone who's a legal gun owner that protects himself and those around him through the use of deadly force when the situation requires it. 

Had he the opportunity to run and other people continued to get hurt, i would imagine he would feel some remorse for those injured/killed while he was safely living the rest of his life.  I imagine he saw an opportunity to stop the violence and figured he would "save the day" or at least offer a service to himself and others around him but he paid the ultimate price.  Of course he may have not been able to run... in that case, at least he had some kind of means to defend himself other than taking his shoe off and tossing it at the gunman. 

he had 5 seconds to act... we'll have (God willing) 50 years to pick it apart and say what we would (or wouldnt) have done...
 





I am not quite following what you say about being a civlilian sheepdog, please elaborate on this comment.
IF I may, a sheepdog is a dog that watches over sheep. A policeman would be considered a sheepdog. A non-Policeman would be considered a civilian sheepdog. Or so I think.

Offline cj750

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #373 on: June 12, 2014, 02:30:29 pm »
I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

First, Australians and Americans are both human. I would imagine that the percentage of "crazy" is similar in both populations, but for some reason the Australian "crazies" don't shoot the place up. I wonder why? What is the difference? Hmmm...

Secondly, to suggest our 74 school shootings in just the past year and a half to Australia's ZERO is statiscally insignificant is just plain ridiculous. Zero is the only acceptable statistic and if we aren't doing everything we can to get closer to that number, we are failing the children in this country. We are not talking about flipping coins.

How and why is it possible for a 15 year old kid in Portland to have access to an AR-15, a 9mm and hundreds of rounds of ammo?

BTW, you know that "74" number is totally bogus, right?
It includes use of firearms in self-defense from attackers, suicides, drug deals gone bad in school parking lots after hours, and some incidents that can't be independently verified as ever happening at all. http://www.nationalreview.com/node/380108/print
Yes, there have been a few events where a gunman has simply walked into a school and opened fire. Those are undeniably tragic and have been well-publicized. I agree that zero should be the goal. But suggesting that  there have been 74 recent incidents of what the general public considers "school shootings" is wildly misleading. While misleading people may be an effective tactic to advance a cause, but its not a constructive way to solve an actual problem. (To be clear, I'm pointing a finger at the people who put out the bogus number, not anyone who innocently makes reference to it.)
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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #374 on: June 13, 2014, 03:28:48 am »
I'm not a statistician, but I've tried to pick up a little. The school shootings in the US are committed by crazies. In any population one would expect a certain % of crazies. People will try to attribute crazy behavior to things which may be controlled but I don't buy that. Crazy is as crazy does.

To get a good sample requires MANY iterations. In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

IT like saying lets flip a coin 50 times and if it lands on heads 40 times it will land on heads 4 times out of 5 in the next 50 flips. Wrong. Sample not large enough. Nor does it give any indication of when the proper ratio will appear (50/50). You have to keep flipping until the sample is large enough that a true pattern emerges.

Or likewise flip it 10 times and they all land on tails, well you see. Doesn't mean something caused it to happen, even if it hapens again 10 times in a row.

First, Australians and Americans are both human. I would imagine that the percentage of "crazy" is similar in both populations, but for some reason the Australian "crazies" don't shoot the place up. I wonder why? What is the difference? Hmmm...

Secondly, to suggest our 74 school shootings in just the past year and a half to Australia's ZERO is statiscally insignificant is just plain ridiculous. Zero is the only acceptable statistic and if we aren't doing everything we can to get closer to that number, we are failing the children in this country. We are not talking about flipping coins.

How and why is it possible for a 15 year old kid in Portland to have access to an AR-15, a 9mm and hundreds of rounds of ammo?

BTW, you know that "74" number is totally bogus, right?
It includes use of firearms in self-defense from attackers, suicides, drug deals gone bad in school parking lots after hours, and some incidents that can't be independently verified as ever happening at all. http://www.nationalreview.com/node/380108/print
Yes, there have been a few events where a gunman has simply walked into a school and opened fire. Those are undeniably tragic and have been well-publicized. I agree that zero should be the goal. But suggesting that  there have been 74 recent incidents of what the general public considers "school shootings" is wildly misleading. While misleading people may be an effective tactic to advance a cause, but its not a constructive way to solve an actual problem. (To be clear, I'm pointing a finger at the people who put out the bogus number, not anyone who innocently makes reference to it.)


To say those figures are bogus or insignificant is just plain ignorant and stupid, sorry guys but thats just total bullsh1t, look at it how you want, you"ve totally missed the point, we have still had none in that period and none i can even remember at all, ever.   The schools are just one example and a disgusting statistic at that, what other stats would you like, you'll still find NO gun stats that come close to ours no matter how you like to look at it and there are still plenty of guns here.... 1 shooting in a school is far too many, 74 should be a national disgrace, regardless of how they occurred.... referring to me as being "innocent" to whats going on is annoying and patronizing, the number is insignificant, the point was it should be a national disgrace and something should be being done about it, how can the worlds largest economy and "protectors" of the free world be so damn violent, its completely hypocritical..

Quote
In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

Ron, thats pretty naive mate, i don't know anyone that would believe that statement for one minute, its laughable, we aren't talking about war , these are SCHOOLS.....unbelievable...... :o And it wasn't a decade, it was in around a year and a half which makes it all the more worse.
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