Topic: gun massacre

[Terry in Australia]

Retro - what started as an exercise in "banishment" for criminals seems to have evolved into a "sanctuary" from criminals. Oddly ironic isn't it? Bet the Brits never saw that coming! See what happens when the animals run the zoo, everybody settles down and gets along in the jungle 

Yeah mate, as  you and Bobby mentioned, most of those "convicts" who were transported to Oz weren't actually criminals, but just really poor people who had to steal to survive long before welfare payments and public housing, or in the case of my ancestors, Irish rebels thrown out of their own country by English invaders.

Of course, Britain transported around 50,000 convicts to their North American colonies. In the 1700's, around 25% of immigrants into North America were British convicts, who were sold to land owners as laborers, before American land owners started importing slaves from Africa.

The US now has more convicted felons (in and out of jail) than Oz has people, so I guess the US has the worlds largest prison colony now? Somehow though, I don't think that your criminals are going to turn the US into some kind of paradise any time soon............. Cheers, Terry.

[calj737]

I think you couldn't be more right, Terry. Between those convicts in prison, out of prison, elected to political office, or playing pro sports, our chances of becoming an idyllic social model are long gone.

At least some of us rational folks left here can still find solace and common ground in vintage bikes. What will the world become when they outlaw combustion engines???

[MCRider]

"In a large population a few dozen in a decade vs none in a small population isn't statistically valid.

Ron, thats pretty naive mate, i don't know anyone that would believe that statement for one minute, its laughable, we aren't talking about war , these are SCHOOLS.....unbelievable...... And it wasn't a decade, it was in around a year and a half which makes it all the more worse."

Gotta admit my mistake, taking 2012 as 2002. Doesn't interrupt my point however. I think its naive to think that any biological population doesn't have a share of crazies in it. The actions of this group are hardly predictable, nor will they occur in anything but random order. Some Pops will be over represented in violence from time to time, others under represented.. The Law of Large Numbers indicating that we simply don't have a big enough sample to use for anything other than flailing in the dark.

IF these people don't have access to guns, they will use the next weapon in line, knives, explosives, vehicles, whatever, to satisfy their psychosis.

A little off track but interesting to me, is that I found in the last 10+ years the US schoolage population has increased considerably from 60,M or so to 88M. The demographics has changed considerably too. Injecting stress into the pop.

Seems in Aus its been about flat at 5M for that time with little demographics changing. A utopia for school admin. 

[cj750]

"Facts" and "truth" are simply a distraction from the real argument, which is how you feel about the topic. Got it.

To say those figures are bogus or insignificant is just plain ignorant and stupid, sorry guys but thats just total bullsh1t, look at it how you want, you"ve totally missed the point, we have still had none in that period and none i can even remember at all, ever.   The schools are just one example and a disgusting statistic at that, what other stats would you like, you'll still find NO gun stats that come close to ours no matter how you like to look at it and there are still plenty of guns here.... 1 shooting in a school is far too many, 74 should be a national disgrace, regardless of how they occurred.... referring to me as being "innocent" to whats going on is annoying and patronizing, the number is insignificant, the point was it should be a national disgrace and something should be being done about it, how can the worlds largest economy and "protectors" of the free world be so damn violent, its completely hypocritical..

[JeffSTL]

Based on this conversation, I'm wondering if you guys beyond our borders are beginning to see the problem here. Everyone can agree there is a problem, but can't agree upon a cause or a solution.

It is almost purely political and the majority of us suffer at the hands of idiologs. The gun violence debate is not much different than the healthcare debate. Pretty much everyone agrees that our healthcare system doesn't work, but every suggestion about how to fix it was shot down. Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no. When you paint one side as evil it is impossible to compromise.

[calj737]

Retro - not to change the subject but, China will eclipse the US in very short order as the largest economy and the US is currently withdrawing globally as "protector". Not sure how I feel about those things, except to say this: Anecdotally, the world seemed a safer and more peaceful place when the US was strong on the military front, active and involved in global unrest, and had a thriving economy.

Having said all that, given the state of affairs and moral decline here, perhaps it's best we no longer thrive to be those things. And maybe it's all somewhat intertwined with the problem in this thread.

Who knows? It's all very troubling to me.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yikes, we have more people in our prison system than people in Oz. That is scary.
And a disproportional amount of those just happen to be black.

Approximately 12%-13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 40% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).[1]

Huh.

[calj737]

Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 

[70CB750]

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

[JeffSTL]

Btw- the national review...great source for unbiased news, ha! I had the misfortune of trying to read through the links posted in the story. The links to disputed information took you to tweets, which then had links to stories that were supposed to disprove the stats. Crack journalism and fine work indeed. Apparently, that guy, Charles Johnson, thinks that if one kid shoots another kid in school, but they were in a gang, it doesn't count as a "school shooting."

The instance where a college kid is claiming self defense...he was involved in a fight, left the fight, went to his car to retrieve a gun, returned and fired. You'd have to live in a strange world to call this self defense. If he could get to his car, he could drive away. Returning and shooting is revenge, not self defense.

We can nitpick stories and numbers, but all of it is simply distraction from the problem. I also don't understand why some people seem to want to seperate the however many dozen school or mass public shootings from the other 30,000 or so deaths that come at the end of a gun barrel. We should want to attempt to keep them all from happening. It shouldn't matter if it's a random mass shooting, domestic, suicide, gang, or criminal activity.

I'm also so damn tired of hearing the knife or car analogy. The Seattle shooter turned to a large knife after his shotgun malfunction. The knife was quickly taken from him and no one else was injured.

[JeffSTL]

Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

If Obama #$%* a thousand golden Ronnie Reagans, you'd still hate him.

[70CB750]

Even when the Bozo in the the White House gave the opposition pretty much exactly what they had called for 15 years earlier they still said no.

I certainly agree with 50% of this: Bozo has taken up residence at 1600 Penn Ave.

 

I beg to differ, Bozo the Clown would be much better president.

If Obama #$%* a thousand golden Ronnie Reagans, you'd still hate him.

You are the one speaking of hate,  I only think he is a very poorly performing president.

[70CB750]

Now you can call me racist and with the previous line that will pretty much sum up your whole world view, LOL!

[JeffSTL]

You aren't the most clever fella.

[cj750]

Btw- the national review...great source for unbiased news, ha! I had the misfortune of trying to read through the links posted in the story. The links to disputed information took you to tweets, which then had links to stories that were supposed to disprove the stats. Crack journalism and fine work indeed. Apparently, that guy, Charles Johnson, thinks that if one kid shoots another kid in school, but they were in a gang, it doesn't count as a "school shooting."

The instance where a college kid is claiming self defense...he was involved in a fight, left the fight, went to his car to retrieve a gun, returned and fired. You'd have to live in a strange world to call this self defense. If he could get to his car, he could drive away. Returning and shooting is revenge, not self defense.

We can nitpick stories and numbers, but all of it is simply distraction from the problem. I also don't understand why some people seem to want to seperate the however many dozen school or mass public shootings from the other 30,000 or so deaths that come at the end of a gun barrel. We should want to attempt to keep them all from happening. It shouldn't matter if it's a random mass shooting, domestic, suicide, gang, or criminal activity.

I'm also so damn tired of hearing the knife or car analogy. The Seattle shooter turned to a large knife after his shotgun malfunction. The knife was quickly taken from him and no one else was injured.

National Review may or may not be your cup of tea, but in this case, they were spot on. Even CNN has acknowledged that 80% of the alleged 74 "school shootings" shouldn't have been counted as such. http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/11/cnn-slashes-school-shooting-stats-claim-by-80-percent/
I'd say that's being generous. But regardless, it doesn't take away from the fact that even one is a tragedy, and something should be done. As noted above what that something should be is the real issue.
My point is that throwing out grossly inflated statistics and fanning the flames of hysteria does nothing to constructively address the underlying problem. It simply polarizes the opposition and prevents any meaningful dialog from taking place.

[demon78]

Yes because I think if this was a debate some one, (a moderator?) perhaps would claim that every one has wandered off topic or at least the topic of what to do and I personally have only one thought, that gun violence is being exported through out the world by media and I would like it to stop, the exportation, that is, because to get down to the basic thing it's not cool.
Bill the demon.
 

[JeffSTL]

“It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus. It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school,” Charles C. Johnson protested.

The logic behind the "debunking" of the 74 previously reported school shootings.

[70CB750]

“It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus. It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school,” Charles C. Johnson protested.

The logic behind the "debunking" of the 74 previously reported school shootings.

I can clearly understand what he meant, but what do I know, English is my second, actually third language.

[cj750]

“It’s not a school shooting when someone goes and shoots a specific person on campus. It’s a shooting that happens to take place at school,” Charles C. Johnson protested.

The logic behind the "debunking" of the 74 previously reported school shootings.

Its not a hard concept to grasp. Not every fire in the forest is a "forest fire." Not everyone that's shot on school property is the victim of a "school shooting." Pretending they're all the same doesn't get us any closer to identifying and preventing the causes of the real thing.

[JeffSTL]

You guys just have every excuse in the book to not address the issue. Now you rely on semantics.

[JeffSTL]

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.

[calj737]

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.

Ideal, but naive.

[JeffSTL]

Personally, I don't give a #$%* if it's a shooting at a school, at a business, gang violence, a domestic dispute, a suicide. It's all got to stop.

Ideal, but naive.

Nothing naive about it. Not likley possible, but if it's not the desired goal of every person here then we will get nowhere.

[calj737]

Apologies, but if you think you will ever persuade someone involved in gang violence, the drug trade or other criminal activity to not resort to a gun to enforce their will, then you are naive.

The only hope you ever have of accomplishing that, is to remove from the face of the earth all firearms, and somehow get those "criminals" to turn their back on that life and become moral, upstanding members of society. As I said, ideal, but naive.

[cj750]

You guys just have every excuse in the book to not address the issue. Now you rely on semantics.

Not at all. I'm just saying that an honest, good-faith dialogue from both sides will be required to find a workable solution. Staking out a position based on misleading, over-hyped statistics and sensationalized talking points is counter-productive to that.