Author Topic: gun massacre  (Read 27124 times)

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #450 on: June 16, 2014, 02:51:37 pm »
 The question of the US having Gun Culture has come up several times.

The US was born at the muzzle of a gun. There was no orderly political transition, it was a revolt, rebellion, or whatever you want to call it. The Citizen Soldier took up arms and took on the superpower of it's day. A Government and a Constitution resulted in which the individual had rights not granted by the Government.

Local Militias were formed to support the Continental Army, and fend off thieves that stole Cattle and sold them to the British. When there was a threat to the Community every able bodied man was expected to aid the common defense.  We were taught this in School, our heroes were Men who went against the grain.

In the War Between the States, it was the Citizen soldier who fought for their ideology, which was not completely about Slavery, it was about States rights, Slavery being one of them. Nonetheless, it was the Citizen soldier who fought that war. That war ended, but the idea of States rights and individual rights did not.

The US had no King Arthur, no tales of brave Knights to defend the realm. We invented the Cowboy, and Man who was a rugged individual, peaceful by nature, but prone to take action if provoked.

These images and ideals may be in the past and out of date, but they formed a culture, and cultural influences do not die off easily.         


 
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #451 on: June 16, 2014, 02:52:56 pm »

I think Zimmerman instigated the whole thing trying to be a hero, if he had done nothing it would have been a quiet night in his neighborhood, instead he was looking to make himself a hero at the expense of the poor kid, If he didn't have a gun he wouldn't have even been there, I don't believe for one minute the kid was being anything other than defensive, Zimmerman should have minded his own business full stop and should be in jail for murder, now his defense, whether its actual or not, is a loop hole for anyone that "thinks they saw a gun or were in perceived danger" so I shot him, stupidest law i have ever seen.......

The justice system here unfortunately isn't always consistent. In Florida back in 2010 Marissa Alexander who up to that time had no criminal record fired a warning shot at a wall to keep her abusive husband at bay. She didn't shoot to kill or injure, just a warning shot and nobody got hurt. Self defense or not or warning shot or not it was still considered attempted murder under Florida law at that time and she got 20 years for it even though the "stand your ground" law was already in effect in Florida at the time. A lot of people questioned how Zimmerman did shoot to kill/injure and got away with it while Marissa Alexander fired a warning shot with nobody getting hurt but got 20 years.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #452 on: June 16, 2014, 04:03:34 pm »
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline vfourfreak

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #453 on: June 16, 2014, 04:40:25 pm »
Not sure if I understand correctly, it's late here, et je suis trés fatigué.  She got a 20 yr sentence, appealed and now is "facing 60 years in prison" ???? How does that work ?

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Offline yunk

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #454 on: June 16, 2014, 11:34:12 pm »
First of all sorry for my poor english, it isn't my first language and im not a good writer regardless if it is in english or my native language.

But I think that the biggest reason for all the crime and violence in a society is big income inequality and poverty. Regardless of which country or where in the world it is.

I'm not saying that it is an excuse for poor people to be violent, or that they have a right to go on and kill just because they are poor, absolutely not, but poverty is what crime stems from regardless of what right wing politicians and their media says. All the gun killings and massacres in the US is a symptom of a society that is sick. And poverty and a big income inequality is one of the biggest causes to society sicknesses there is. From what I have learned, income inequality has grown in the last thirty years in the US, and together with an increase in guns the result is seen today.

Raise wages for the poor and increase welfare and raise taxes for the richest of the rich, and reduce the amount of guns dramatically and your country would be a much better place to live.

I saw that someone said that the welfare state was one of the causes for all the evil and nothing could be more wrong then that. We have welfare states here in western europe, and crime levels are much lower then in US. If you blame the welfare state for the evil in your society then i dont think you have experienced what it is like living in a real welfare state. You are being brainwashed by all the right wing media lies.

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #455 on: June 17, 2014, 04:42:11 am »
yunk your english is good enough and your idea's have validity. What's your tax rate? What do you get for the taxes? Does it mean there is no one that's rich?
Does it stop smart people from getting to the top of their field?
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #456 on: June 17, 2014, 04:55:09 am »
I would like to add hard workers as well to that last thought.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #457 on: June 17, 2014, 02:16:16 pm »
Having a small minority (10%) population along with good social programs helps in a country like Sweden.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #458 on: June 17, 2014, 02:27:57 pm »
yunk your english is good enough and your idea's have validity. What's your tax rate? What do you get for the taxes? Does it mean there is no one that's rich?
Does it stop smart people from getting to the top of their field?
Bill the demon.

Yes there are rich, smart people obviously get to the top of their given fields, and as for tax, they get damn near everything, great roads, great health care and great schooling , Sweden is rated as one of the happiest populations on the planet, they seem to look after their own and do it well.... ;)
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #459 on: June 17, 2014, 02:56:13 pm »
I guess a little thread jack wasn't appreciated  :D

Thanks for the catch, Retro. I need coffee......
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 04:19:18 pm by calj737 »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #460 on: June 17, 2014, 03:00:22 pm »
To quote the late, great Ben Hogan, "Luck is the residue of good, hard work". It takes some luck, some lucky bounces, some lucky calls to win a major sports tournament. But I agree, Retro, luck doesn't last. Gotta be good enough to overcome the luck when it doesn't show for you.

Although, Chelsea won the Champions League with only luck...

Wrong thread mate.... ;D ;)
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #461 on: June 17, 2014, 03:06:31 pm »
RR so the lefties can put together a good government and well run country?
I guess I'll have to remind the righties  that it can be done by good people but not by the current crop of cheeseballs that call them selves "Leaders". I know that is dangerously close to a political comment but that's the way she goes.
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #462 on: June 17, 2014, 04:28:40 pm »
I think comparing Sweden (Population of 9 million) and centuries of indigenous inhabitants, against a country like the US is comparing Electric cars and watermelons. While the social and cultural successes are very admirable, they certainly do not have to contend with the myriad of issues dealt with here.

I don't think it's down to "lefties" or "brainwashing from the right", it's down to generations of cultural diversity trying to meld into a single society of equal opportunity, equal values and our own political system is exploiting both sides against the other.

Quite depressing to see us all take sides in a fight no one wants. Certainly doesn't further our tolerance and mutual objective.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #463 on: June 17, 2014, 05:18:37 pm »
I think comparing Sweden (Population of 9 million) and centuries of indigenous inhabitants, against a country like the US is comparing Electric cars and watermelons. While the social and cultural successes are very admirable, they certainly do not have to contend with the myriad of issues dealt with here.

But thats just the point Cal, its a completely different way of looking at things, and not making GREED and SELF more important than the whole Picture, while you {and us} have politicians with a "divide and conquer" mentality, and thats exactly what is happening, nothing will change. An example is an example, regardless of the size and the differences aren't population based, its mentality based....... ;)
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #464 on: June 17, 2014, 05:34:12 pm »
I see the value in looking at other models of how it can be, or how it might change. But, you can not compare social dynamics that require significant change with a model that has been in place for many hundreds of years. Creating from then, versus changing to now, a massive population with very different components, is not a viable comparison.

Comparing Oz is a much more relevant example due to length of settlement, composition of population (WASP), and then a diverse population of post-settlement immigrants. You don't have the forced immigration of slaves and the issues surrounding that, but, with your (Oz) new wave of immigrants, even you and some others have indicated a shift in values/behaviors. So perhaps, you're heading the direction we are, as a result of different global tensions and all the influx of agitated people Oz may begin to see a rise in crime (not saying gun violence) more focused on these newer demographics.

It will be interesting to see the next 5-10 years whether you can maintain the great track record as the prior 15.

At the end of the day, this thread was oriented on the public shootings and outrage we all share over them. These public massacres are not really being perpetrated by the "impoverished, income-deprived, urban street criminals". They're being perpetrated by the mentally unstable or I'll, and the evil. If we want to discuss street crime being urban-centric, I'm all for shifting gears to open that dialogue. Then, the above examples (socially balanced/oriented governance) would be in my mind, relevant.

Can we talk World Cup now?  :)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #465 on: June 18, 2014, 12:57:58 am »
 

The US was born at the muzzle of a gun. There was no orderly political transition, it was a revolt, rebellion, or whatever you want to call it. The Citizen Soldier took up arms and took on the superpower of it's day.

Hey Bobby, when modern Americans recount their history, which of course starts with the Revolutionary War, why do they always forget to give France any credit?

It appears to me that while the Citizen Soldier was the "Grunt" of the day, France's involvement, both politically and militarily, was what really stopped Britain, the world's then biggest superpower, from crushing the revolution. (which they were more than capable of doing) Here's some history to refresh everyone's memory:

"In the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), France fought alongside the United States, against Britain, from 1778. French money, munitions, soldiers and naval forces proved essential to America's victory over the Crown, but France gained little except large debts.
 
Benjamin Franklin served as the American ambassador to France from 1776 to 1783. He met with many leading diplomats, aristocrats, intellectuals, scientists and financiers. Franklin's image and writings caught the French imagination – there were many images of him sold on the market – and he became the image of the archetypal new American and even a hero for aspirations for a new order inside France. The French goal was to weaken Britain, both to keep it from getting too powerful and to exact revenge for the defeat in the Seven Years' War. After the American capture of the British invasion army at Saratoga in 1777, and after the French navy had been built up, France was ready. In 1778 France recognized the United States of America as a sovereign nation, signed a military alliance, went to war with Britain, built coalitions with the Netherlands and Spain that kept Britain without a significant ally of its own, provided the Americans with grants, arms and loans, sent a combat army to serve under George Washington, and sent a navy that prevented the second British army from escaping from Yorktown in 1781. In all, the French spent about 1.3 billion livres (in modern currency, approximately thirteen billion U.S. dollars) to support the Americans directly, not including the money it spent fighting Britain on land and sea outside the U.S.[1]
 
French aid proved vital in the victory of the Americans seeking independence from Britain. The U.S. gained much territory at the 1783 Treaty of Paris, but France – after losing some naval battles – fared poorly there. It did get its revenge and made a new ally and trading partner. However the high debt France accumulated was a major cause of the French Revolution in 1789."

It often makes me wonder why Americans disparage the French, not that I'm French, of course. The last line is the saddest thing for me though, France's involvement in helping America win against the British lead to the French Revolution in 1789, which isn't a problem in itself, except for that damn musical, "Les Miserables".

God I hate that fcuking show, especially the film version with Russell Crowe torturing me with his pathetic attempts at singing, he's not a bad actor, but he's no fcuking Dean Martin............. ;D
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #466 on: June 18, 2014, 01:57:36 am »
Agreed Terry, many Americans forget their history lessons from school.
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #467 on: June 18, 2014, 04:42:47 am »
They also gave us french's mustard.

Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #468 on: June 18, 2014, 04:51:53 am »
You know I think that probably is the major factor in all this horse #$%*, no one knows their history because it's more convenient to forget what has gone before and re invent the wheel each time (each time the wheel is reinvented they hang a few more gee gaws on it and it doesn't work as well) in fact I think if history was taught properly there wouldn't be as many bad choices made in domestic or international politics from local to world level. But of course then some of our "leaders" could only expect to be elected as dog catchers or waste management technicians (#$%* shovelers) provided there wasn't more qualified people around. I am not just talking about Americans or Canadians I'm saying every one.
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Offline calj737

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #469 on: June 18, 2014, 05:26:01 am »
Terry - I don't think the US even remotely forgot the debt to France in their support during the Revolutionary War. In fact, it was considered by many a large contributor to the US decision to wage war at Normandy. That single offensive was the largest single day loss of life for American military in history. Our fallen soldiers still lie in the soil on foreign land as a permanent reminder of the debt we all share globally to defeat dictators, oppressors, and mad men.

There is much French-influenced heritage still in the US: L'Enfant plaza in DC, Lady Liberty, too numerous towns and cities across the US, and of course, French Fries (my favorite gift from our Gallic friends).

The point made originally was that the early American settler was a true citizen-soldier as their was no Continental Army until after the start of the Rev. And so much like all wars, international alliances are created after the engagements, and war is debt to all countries. To say that France's debts from that war are tremendous, is quite funny now, given the hundreds of billions of dollars the US has incurred as a result of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

There isn't a civilized country on earth that hasn't been in involved or financially impacted (negatively) due to war and global conflict. I see no connection to it, and our current state of mental despair.

I see this "everybody re-states history" idea in other topics, like slavery. The American economy that was heavily supported by slavery didn't start because of American Independence, it started with the British use of slaves on US soil. The entire trade was frontiered by Spain and Portugal. True, Americans became a very large market for the purchase of slaves due to their agriculturally heavy economy, but we didn't start it and we didn't make it happen. We just used it as it was lawful at the time.

I'm delighted to see it vanish from the earth, and wish it had done so in a far more elegant way, much sooner. But true to form, our government, like so many others, couldn't manage a 2-car funeral without screwing it up. You think listening to Russell Crowe try to sing is dreadful, try listening to the talking heads in our elections spin lies against each other and treat us like retarded children. I'll take Act III of Crowe and Jackman please!
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #470 on: June 18, 2014, 06:15:21 am »
That goes to my point politicians talking to you/us like retarded children they wouldn't be able to do that if people knew their history or at least the spin would be more elegant.
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #471 on: June 18, 2014, 07:21:41 am »
Agreed Terry, many Americans forget their history lessons from school.

I don't. Whenever anyone wants to crack a joke at the expense of the Frenchies I like to remind them that without the help of the French, the US probably would have lost the war. Then I like to run backwards waving a white hanky while spouting random French words.

Viva la Franc!
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #472 on: June 18, 2014, 02:49:04 pm »
 

The US was born at the muzzle of a gun. There was no orderly political transition, it was a revolt, rebellion, or whatever you want to call it. The Citizen Soldier took up arms and took on the superpower of it's day.

Hey Bobby, when modern Americans recount their history, which of course starts with the Revolutionary War, why do they always forget to give France any credit?

It appears to me that while the Citizen Soldier was the "Grunt" of the day, France's involvement, both politically and militarily, was what really stopped Britain, the world's then biggest superpower, from crushing the revolution. (which they were more than capable of doing) Here's some history to refresh everyone's memory:

"In the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), France fought alongside the United States, against Britain, from 1778. French money, munitions, soldiers and naval forces proved essential to America's victory over the Crown, but France gained little except large debts.
 
Benjamin Franklin served as the American ambassador to France from 1776 to 1783. He met with many leading diplomats, aristocrats, intellectuals, scientists and financiers. Franklin's image and writings caught the French imagination – there were many images of him sold on the market – and he became the image of the archetypal new American and even a hero for aspirations for a new order inside France. The French goal was to weaken Britain, both to keep it from getting too powerful and to exact revenge for the defeat in the Seven Years' War. After the American capture of the British invasion army at Saratoga in 1777, and after the French navy had been built up, France was ready. In 1778 France recognized the United States of America as a sovereign nation, signed a military alliance, went to war with Britain, built coalitions with the Netherlands and Spain that kept Britain without a significant ally of its own, provided the Americans with grants, arms and loans, sent a combat army to serve under George Washington, and sent a navy that prevented the second British army from escaping from Yorktown in 1781. In all, the French spent about 1.3 billion livres (in modern currency, approximately thirteen billion U.S. dollars) to support the Americans directly, not including the money it spent fighting Britain on land and sea outside the U.S.[1]
 
French aid proved vital in the victory of the Americans seeking independence from Britain. The U.S. gained much territory at the 1783 Treaty of Paris, but France – after losing some naval battles – fared poorly there. It did get its revenge and made a new ally and trading partner. However the high debt France accumulated was a major cause of the French Revolution in 1789."

It often makes me wonder why Americans disparage the French, not that I'm French, of course. The last line is the saddest thing for me though, France's involvement in helping America win against the British lead to the French Revolution in 1789, which isn't a problem in itself, except for that damn musical, "Les Miserables".

God I hate that fcuking show, especially the film version with Russell Crowe torturing me with his pathetic attempts at singing, he's not a bad actor, but he's no fcuking Dean Martin............. ;D
Terry, true enough Mate.

That animosity toward the French is a fairly recent event. It escalated when they refused to allow American planes to use their airspace to bomb Libya and it went downhill from there.

My Father in Law was first wave at Normandy and those Allied troops that did break through were directed away from the Germans by the French.  The French seemed to enjoy occupation I suppose.
I think helping to liberate them during WWII repaid the debt with interest.

A mile from where I live was a French encampment led by General Rochambeau, people are still digging up artifacts in the field around there.  He joined Washington for the Battle of White Plains which we won.

In his place a group of 50 free Blacks from Rhode Island along with our local Militia were to hold a bridge near the end of my road. They came up against 300 British troops and the combined force held out for less than an hour with no known survivors.  A monument is being erected now in there honor.

Yes you read that right, not all Blacks were Slaves or uneducated. Slavery was not driving the economy other than cotton plantations confined to the South.  Slavery was dying on it’s own with the development of farm machinery, that could do more work faster and cheaper than manpower could. 

The French fleet at Yorktown was not a given. Cornwallis bet they would not come in, and Washington bet they would, even though he was told they were probably not coming.  They did come in and bottled up the British. The French also hated the British so this was their chance to really #$%* them up in public.  As a kid the French were well portrayed in our history lessons.
 
French scholars came and studied our Revolution as it was happening and published books about the “American Experiment”.  The French people loved the “American experiment”.   It showed you could get along just fine without a King, Royalty, and the Church controlling your life.
 The US was cut off from England after the Revolution so the French had access to all of Trade from the US. We had a lot of natural resources.

 The early American Architects, Engineers and Artists, were educated in France since they could not go to England.  That influence can be seen in some of our early buildings. I am sure some American thought leaked out and contributed to the French Revolution since it proved that it could be done.
 
We Americans always knew the French looked at us simple crude rustics and they never hid it. We are not simple rustics; we are the children of immigrants who used their peasant savvy to build a Country. The World watches our Movies and TV, wears our fashions, and uses our technology.
 
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Offline demon78

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #473 on: June 18, 2014, 03:22:20 pm »
Bobby the quebecois still look at us like that simple crude rustics with no sense of ha ha.
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Offline simon#42

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Re: gun massacre
« Reply #474 on: June 18, 2014, 03:26:28 pm »
the french are our natural enemy , many people here believe the 100 year war ended prematurely .

be sensible though bobby,  no one wears your fashion .