Author Topic: 78 CB550 won't idle with choke off, looking for help to troubleshoot.  (Read 5770 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Hi Guys,

I was fortunate enough to get some help from you guys to get this thing to run. Now that it starts up and runs, it doesn't seem to want to idle when the choke is off. Any ideas?

I have done the following:
 - Cleaned carbs
 - Cleaned main jet
 - Cleaned the slow jet
 - All spark plugs are getting spark
 - Added fresh fuel
 - Adjusted the air/fuel screws to 2/2.5/3 turns each


I HAVE NOT done the following:
 - I have not properly adjusted the float height in the carbs (No tool to do it)
 - I have not not a bench sync on carbs
 - I have not touched anything related to the timing


Any ideas???

1975 CB550k's

Offline iron_worker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,079
Did you possibly add pods?

IW

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
The previous owner actually had pods on it. So yes, there are pods on it.....

There are also some pretty big holes in my exhausts. Stock 4 to 4 exhaust.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:58:13 PM by rocs »
1975 CB550k's

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
I expect the pilot circuits are not working.  Or, the IMS screws aren't out far enough.  Or, the slides aren't balanced enough to allow even firing of the cylinders at idle.

Have you checked the head pipes for even heat?


With pods and a leaky exhaust, the stock carb jetting isn't going to be very happy in any case.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
I expect the pilot circuits are not working.  Or, the IMS screws aren't out far enough.  Or, the slides aren't balanced enough to allow even firing of the cylinders at idle.
I blew air through the slow circuit and the main circuit. I also ran the bike with the IMS screw at 1.5 turns, 2 turns, 2.5 turns and 3 turns.

When you say the slides, do you mean the choke slides? Also, I saw that my slow jets are #42's.


Have you checked the head pipes for even heat?
Yes, all four header pipes get extremely hot.


With pods and a leaky exhaust, the stock carb jetting isn't going to be very happy in any case.

I saw the slow jets are #42. Not sure what the main jet is. DO you think I should just break down the carbs entirely again and Ultrasonic clean them?
1975 CB550k's

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
I don't know if this has something to do with it but just realized that my pilot/jet needle (#4) only has the spring and the pilot/jet needle. There is no washer and O ring as noted in this link.


http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=48858.0

The previous owner must have lost it.... Could this be the culprit??
1975 CB550k's

Offline Grabcon

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
I just went through this on a 1978 CB550 and until I had the stock air filter in place I could not get the bike to run right. I could not even sync the carbs with the air filter out. There was not enough vacuum being drawing to work with on the sync gauges. Once the air filter was on it start right now synced and idled perfect.

Make sure your Air screws are adjusted properly. The PO on my bike had them turned all the way closed.
CB750   1974 - Gone
CB750F 1976 - Gone :(
CB550   1978 - Gone & now back
CB900F 1981 - Gone
ST1100 1991 - Gone
ST1100 2000 - Gone
VFR800 2008 - Gone
ST1300 2008 - Gone
BMW F700GS - Wife's
VFR1200X 2016 - Mine

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
I just went through this on a 1978 CB550 and until I had the stock air filter in place I could not get the bike to run right. I could not even sync the carbs with the air filter out. There was not enough vacuum being drawing to work with on the sync gauges. Once the air filter was on it start right now synced and idled perfect.

Make sure your Air screws are adjusted properly. The PO on my bike had them turned all the way closed.

Thanks for your help. Would it idle off choke? Mine wont even run unless the choke is on.

Did your air screws have the washer and O ring? Mine only has the screw and spring...
1975 CB550k's

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Also, if I return back to a stock air box, which # main and slow jets should I use?
1975 CB550k's

Offline Grabcon

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
I must say that the motor is cold blooded. It takes a while for the motor to run with the choke completely off. Make sure your choke mechanism is clean so the high idle cam works properly. I have also set the idle a little high when hot 1200 to 1500 rpm. I don't recall about the o-ring but I don't think so.

I am running stock jets I think, since I don't think the bike was ever touched before I got it. I just cleaned them and didn't even look to see what they were. I am also running stock exhaust. 4 to 4.
CB750   1974 - Gone
CB750F 1976 - Gone :(
CB550   1978 - Gone & now back
CB900F 1981 - Gone
ST1100 1991 - Gone
ST1100 2000 - Gone
VFR800 2008 - Gone
ST1300 2008 - Gone
BMW F700GS - Wife's
VFR1200X 2016 - Mine

Offline Maurice

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 448
On 78 I don't think they're air screws but mix screws. Same difference... At any rate they do have an o-ring/washer/spring arrangement. The fact that your o-rings are missing could point to the possibility of bits of o-ring having been sucked into the idle circuit. Make sure you blow all the passages thoroughly, helps by putting your finger on either "exits" when doing this and alternating "exits".

My bike (77 motor/carb) does not idle very fast cold, in fact you have to rev it. The way it starts is:
- stone cold, full choke, gas on, one kick, two when it's been a while, revs up to ~1.5k
- after a few seconds it starts 8-stroking, push choke a bit + gas it, since high-idle cam is disengaged
- keep rev'ing a bit while pushing the choke, eventually it settles to a low idle

Cold blooded indeed... Setting mix screws with other than stock air box is a bit of a PITA, too lean and idle starts racing, too rich and it wants to die/dies altogether at red lights... Adjusting screws for 2-3 is fun when the engine is hot too, unless you have 12-year old hands and thick gloves.

Offline RJ CB450

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Choke increases carb vacuum before fuel, causing increase fuel draw richening mixture.  No idle without choke, way to lean. Without proper intake setup on I/R systems, you lose airflow and therefore your fuel draw.
74 CB450 K7 Supersport, 82 CB650sc Nighthawk, 1982 CBX 1000, 2015 Tiger XCx.... And some ol minibike with a 5hp Briggs.

Offline jamesbekman

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 380
The bike should be fine to idle with pods, no pods, etc etc etc....  It should idle just fine with nothing on them whatsoever...  You run into problems with other than stock air filters, or no air filters whatsoever.... at speed.  Not at idle. 

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
I expect the pilot circuits are not working.  Or, the IMS screws aren't out far enough.  Or, the slides aren't balanced enough to allow even firing of the cylinders at idle.
I blew air through the slow circuit and the main circuit.

You actually saw the air exit the other three access ports to the slow circuit?   Did you dye the air to see that?

I also ran the bike with the IMS screw at 1.5 turns, 2 turns, 2.5 turns and 3 turns.

With pods, something more like 5 or 6 turns could needed to compensate the loss in vacuum at the pilot circuit exit ports.

When you say the slides, do you mean the choke slides? Also, I saw that my slow jets are #42's.
The choke plates are called butterflies.  They are at the entrance to the carbs.

The slides move with the throttle to control inlet air volume.  If they don't open equally relative to the other three, some cylinders may not fire at all at idle.  This is what vacuum balancing is all about.


I saw the slow jets are #42. Not sure what the main jet is. DO you think I should just break down the carbs entirely again and Ultrasonic clean them?

No I seldom recommend a complete tear down, except in extreme or special cases.  Soaking and ultrasonic treatments are similar to praying and hope.  Neither "prove" the pilot circuits are clear and flowing.  I use aerosol carb cleaner for that.

Choke operation forces more fuel to flow from both the mains and the pilot circuit.  Usually if it won't idle without choke, the pilot circuit isn't delivering or delivering enough fuel to sustain running.

The pilot screw oring it there to seal from air ingress, it being missing can, in theory, make the adjustments erratic and leaner.  But, I've never seen them cause a total failure to allow idle.  I've never used these carbs with pods, either.  But, it is hard for me  to believe the missing IMS orings are the only problem you should solve.  These parts don't usually fall out of their own volition.  You should verify they are missing before such declaration.  It is generally accepted that machines work better if all their parts are present.


If it won't idle due to over lean mixtures, it will have bugger of a time with throttle response under load; one of the repercussions of POD installation.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Thanks TT for your response. I am going to go over everything again and confirm that air is flowing through the slow circuit.

I also prefer stock air box over pods but this bike came with pods and I haven't been able to locate a stock air box yet.

Thanks again.
1975 CB550k's

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Thanks TT for your response. I am going to go over everything again and confirm that air is flowing through the slow circuit.

I'll ask again.  How do you see air passing through the four ports of the pilot/slow circuit?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Thanks TT for your response. I am going to go over everything again and confirm that air is flowing through the slow circuit.

I'll ask again.  How do you see air passing through the four ports of the pilot/slow circuit?

I would spray carb cleaner and then watch the solution spit out.
1975 CB550k's

Offline iron_worker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,079
With pods and burnt out exhaust your bike will be running waaayyyy lean. I wouldn't expect it to idle very well at all without the choke on. Unless you're into carb tuning I would recommend you buy yourself a stock air box.

IW

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
With pods and burnt out exhaust your bike will be running waaayyyy lean. I wouldn't expect it to idle very well at all without the choke on. Unless you're into carb tuning I would recommend you buy yourself a stock air box.

IW

Im looking everywhere for a stock airbox and stock exhaust preferably. Just have to find a decent price.

Thanks everyone for all the help and suggestions. Ill report back after trying
1975 CB550k's

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Btw...

Should I be looking at just 77-78 Stock 4 to 4 exhausts? Will the cb750 exhaust work as well?

Also, the stock airbox setup. Should I only be looking for 77-78's for cb550's?
1975 CB550k's

Offline jamesbekman

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 380
Something is still properly gummed up.  Get a proper rebuild kit and start from scratch. 

I guarantee if you put the stock box on its not going to change a thing at idle.

When you rev the engine how does everything respond?  Does it rev well and just doesnt hold idle?

Can you hold it at say 3k ? and it runs fine?


Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Something is still properly gummed up.  Get a proper rebuild kit and start from scratch. 

I guarantee if you put the stock box on its not going to change a thing at idle.

When you rev the engine how does everything respond?  Does it rev well and just doesnt hold idle?

Can you hold it at say 3k ? and it runs fine?

Hi James,

Thanks for the response. I will go over the carbs again to see if there are any clogged areas.

The engine doesn't rev quick. It hesitates between 1-3K and then will rev up after then. All my jets are clear and im positive of that. I am going to check my main and slow circuits again.
1975 CB550k's

Offline jamesbekman

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 380
Do you have confirmed good fuel flow? did you pull the emulsion tubes too?  I forgot if you did the static timing or not on the bike.

Offline rocs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
I cleaned the emulsion tubes and made sure all the side holes were clear as well. Same with the slow jets.

I have not touched the timing on the bike
1975 CB550k's