Author Topic: CB550: building one good engine from two engines + new parts. Help me pick!  (Read 3711 times)

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Offline Franky

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This thread picks up where this left: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135314.msg1554207#msg1554207

I'm sure I need to replace the primary chain on my CB550 K3. It's loose as hell and has been dragging on the case. It's way loser than this: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=95421.0

Now, what else should I replace or check out while I'm in there? I have been reading various threads and this is what I've found so far:

Replace:
- Primary chain
- Cam chain
- Oil seals

Check out:
- Damper rubbers (primary gear)
- Transmission gears
- Shifter forks

(The top I rebuilt about a year ago: newly surfaced top, newly cut valves and seat, a few new valves, new rubber pucks).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 02:03:46 PM by Franky »
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550: Splitting the cases - what to replace/check?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2014, 02:38:36 PM »
gday franky,start posting pics of the strip down.

Offline Franky

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Re: CB550: Splitting the cases - what to replace/check?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 11:44:30 AM »
Hi Dave! Yes, I'll be sure to do that.

I just figured I'd get a head start in ordering parts. The parts that are almost always going to need replacement after so many years of service.

I also have a donor bike. I'll split the engine on that one too, and see which one is best (or any combination of the two).
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline Franky

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Re: CB550: Splitting the cases - what to replace/check?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2014, 12:33:18 PM »
My parts bike is a 76 CB550F and as far as I know, the engine is identical to the one in my 77 CB550K3. So I figure I can pretty much mix-and-match the best parts from both engines, buy some new parts and whatever it takes to get things right. I'd like to keep the top-top (not jugs/pistons) from the K-model, since I've had it fixed last year. The carbs are different, so I'll ask which ones to use later.

I have the shop, haynes and clymer manuals, and will try to diagnose the state of the parts from the two bikes. I also hope for a bunch of help from you guys - advice on do's & don't, judging wear & tear of the parts, etc.   

I have taken apart the engine of the parts bike first. The PO said it ran pretty good - I know him, so I trust his words - but I have never heard it running. He had begun fixing different things on the bike and got fed up with it.



All pictures of this bike will have a red ribbon at the top with the text "B.  Honda CB550F for easy reference. They are pretty hi-res, so just click the images for a closer view. (The pictures of the other engine will have a blue ribbon & "A. Hinda CB550K3")

















Let me know if you need detailed shots, different angles, etc.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 12:36:20 PM by Franky »
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline MandEms

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Thanks for posting this thread, Franky.

I am considering a similar breakdown on my 76 550F in the future and I was wondering if anyone can tell me:

1  How can you determine if your cam and/or primary chain need to be replaced?
2.  Can you buy new cam and primary chains or is it pretty much a case of finding a good used one compared to what you have?

Hope I didn't hijack your thread too bad Franky.

Mark
Mark

Offline calj737

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Cam and primary chains are widely available new. Through a Honda dealer, or a myriad of online parts suppliers. They stretch and wear. They're pretty cheap, so replace them if your engine is open.

Sorry, Franky- nice pics, though!
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Franky

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Hijacking's OK as long as the subjects the same :)

I'll be replacing both chains for sure. I'm more curious about the wear on shifter arms, transmission, oil pump and such.

I usually but my new parts at cmsnl or davidsilver and eBay now and then.

Have just begun taking the other engine apart - pics coming up soon!
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline Franky

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Okidok... engine A is apart as well. Below you have a bunch of pics - this time labelled blue and 'A'. Also I have commented on the different pics.
Ignore all the sand & gravel (I didn't have time to scrub it down).

Now I'm hoping for your advice on what pieces I should buy new, and what parts I should use from engine A & B to make a super engine C :-)


How does this rocker arm wear look?


Diff. angle.


z-pattern mark on one piston


Diff. angle.


Looks like it's been apart sometime.


Tranny


Note the markings - not present in engine B


Holy scraping!  Is there anything to do about it? Can it be left like that with a new chain?



Markings on bearing seats. Bad?
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline calj737

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The scrapes from the primary chain won't hurt you, but do replace the chain (obvious) and take a file and gently knock of the edges to prevent them from coming loose into your oilways later. Even a not too aggressive Dremel disc to soften them up.

Evidence of neglect on keeping the lower end properly maintained. The bearing surfaces don't look too bad, but the shifter forks caused an eyebrow.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline dave500

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don't worry about those marks on the bearing seats.

Offline bryanj

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Keep the appropriate crank with rods in their cases with shells, the rest will mix and match. It will help the primary chain life if you replace the damper rubbers in the primary geat but there are 8 and they are a Honda part only
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Franky

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Thank you for your input bryanj. Those rubbers are on my list - only 4 EURO a piece = 32 euros for 8 little lumps of rubber! (although I do get a discount at cmsnl)  (http://www.cmsnl.com/products/rubber_23114323000/#.U5i93fl_tp8)

I'm on a litle getawau with my lady right now, but over the weekend i'll try to judge the wear on tranny, shifter arm, bearings, etc. according to the manuals I have.
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline Franky

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Bryanj
As far as I can tell, the rubbers only dampen the force from the starter motor, right? In that case, I don't need new ones, since I don't even have a starter motor on the bike. Kick-only (starts super-easy. 1st kick every time).

Shifter arms/fork fingers
They are all within specs on both engines. Only the markings on them (A) seem a bit odd. Should I be worried about that?

Snapped a bolt
I was unfortunate enough to snap one of the 8 mm bolts holding the cases together. That will be a #$%* to fix. Sigh...

Brown vs metal?
I have begun cleaning the parts in solvent, and I noticed, that the inside & many of engine A had a brown hue, while B was more neutral, silvery metal colored. Is this just a sign of infrequent oil changes with sludge darkening the interior?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 11:47:54 AM by Franky »
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline Franky

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Here's a close-up of the pistons of A and B, where the brown vs metal is really obvious.



Engine B hasn't run for a while, but what a difference in color and soot/carbon!
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline bryanj

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Brown is burnt oil probably ring blow by and those damper rubbers are a cushion between the primary chain from crank and the primary shaft to clutch so yes they do do a lot of work
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Franky

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OK, thanks Bryan. Ordered the 8 rubbers as well.

Right now, I'm about here:

New Parts (all from cmsnl.com)
- Cam chain
- Primary chain
- Damper rubbers
- Damper rubbers for cham chain tensioner (was missing!)
- Piston circlips
- Clutch rod (old seem flat at the ends & badly worn)
- OEM base gasket
- O-rings for oil pump (will have to find the internal one somewhere)
- Oil seal set
- New stainless bolts for top (ebay)
- New bolts for assembling cases (Not sure where to get. Some pro-hardware shop/distributor...)

Considering getting a brand-new cam-chain tensioner unit, but it's 250 bucks! The old one looks OK, no big cracks and only slight 'dual wear lines' from the edges of the camchain. But, I really want this to be the last time in a long while i open up this engine!

Mix-n-match parts
Because of the massive burnt oil, I'm considering this setup:
- A bottom end & crank
- B pistons and cylinder
- A top

Still need to properly judge which tranny & fork arms to use.
Found this VERY HELPFUL thread: http://www.fireblades.org/forums/articles-honda-fireblade/104372-how-rebuild-inline-4cyl-bike-trans-clutch-200-pictures.html
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline dave500

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that guys making it up as he goes along!he has a claw hammer to pry cases apart then busts every post in the clutch basket!check his cluttered shambles of a work area!

Offline Franky

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You're right Dave - not exactly elegant. However, it is very detailed and tells/shows what to look for when judging whether a part is worn or not. As a relative newbie, I appreciate that :)
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline bryanj

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The tensioner blade is fine with two grooves , think about it the side plates of the chain cut into the rubber untill the rollers touch the rubber blade BUT look closely at the ends of the rubber part and see if it is peeling off the steel backing (bad news) also put a steel rule across the blade and see if the rollers have worn a lot of rubber off (level will be a lot lower than edges ---also bad news)

As to the internal oil pump "O" ring its a goldwing part and the number has been posted quite a few times, its 46 x 2 mm BUT BE CAREFULL as one member has wrecked an engine due to the supplier selling him a generic one that was more tha 2mm diameter

Read the post on the link below to get the O ring part number

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=138259.msg1562658#msg1562658
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 10:13:40 PM by bryanj »
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline dave500

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then he grinds a notch in the large nut with an angle grinder and tries belting it with a large screwdriver?finally he settles on an impact wrench?and hes showing how its done?#$%*!

Offline calj737

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Fortunately he doesn't say "properly" in his video. Confessing to being a ham-fistted PO before he ever sells the bike?
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Franky

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Hi guys

Parts are arriving, so hopefully I'll be ready to assemble some time soon. Still trying to decide on the pistons. Should I worry about the brown color on the pistons? If it is ring blow by - is that bad? Will new rings work/better the situation? The brown coloration is somewhat present inside the rest of the engine A - much more than in engine B. Could a hot running engine 'burn the oil' and deposit that color?

A year ago, I measured the compression on engine A - good and equal acros the 4 cyls. I don't know the comp. values of engine B, which makes me a little hesitant to do the Engine A + piston/cylinder B + top A combination. I only know that engine A ran 'fine' from the PO (who I know and trust).

I'm leaning towards transmission B - mainly because of the markings on the forks. I've got no comment on that one, except 'a raised eyebrow' :-)  I have not found any serious wear on the dogs or teeth of either transmission.

Hope to receive som input from you guys so I can reassemble with confidence!
1974 Honda CB360T Stock
1974 Honda CB550 K0 Stock
1977 Honda CB550 K3 Cafe - never ending build :)
1988 Honda Dax ST50 Cafe
1997 Honda Benly 50S Stock

Check out my "Yamaha R6 fork on a CB550 made easy" thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=118983.0;all

Offline rb550four

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Have you cleaned the transmission yet? Have you taken a good look at the needle bearings in the basket at the end of the primary shaft? I 've had two engines where those parts was wasted , but you won't find them unless you look for them. I have also had some worn shaft bearings, there is another thing that while you are cleaning them, look for smooth action , burnish or score marks, any sloppiness, you'll know when you play with them if they are suspect.
  Scrub and blow out every little whole then do it again just to be sure there is clear air flow, no one wants failure from oil blockage.
  While you are checking the shifter forks for wear, check the action on the shafts that connect with them, they are on the top end, without oil , if the machine has been out doors for a while, rust can form there making the action slow . In severe cases, frozen. May not be an issue with your machines but never hurts to check while you are going through it and cleaning anyways.
  Check the action on the kick start assembly, you will really hate it if it's a little bent  (for some reason) or the action doesn't happen smoothly and then spring back to position ..... you don't want to go back in because you didn't check and understand how it works while you had  the chance.
  I saw tappets in question but didn't see cam in the pics, maybe I missed it. What kind of shape is it in? Wondering why I would see one and not the other since they are always in contact.
  Saw a base gasket only on the list... No complete gasket set? You aren't planning to reuse the head gasket  are you?
Save a nickle save a dime...doesn't happen at my house. but for you it can be a learning process .
  Clean, clean, clean. check everything for wear, rust and cracks, missing teeth that kind of stuff , take the gears apart look in between them look at them for damage as if they were , then when satisfied that they aren't damage in any way, put them back in the correct order. The worst part of not going over every part  is the haunting feeling, after it's all back together, that you missed something, and it's worse when you had the chance to know for sure , but let that chance slip by. Even if something is suspect to you and goes unchanged you made the conscious decision to let it be and now you know. Take your time, have some fun, make it the best you can , and be thorough, then you  know what you got when it's done.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:15:04 PM by rb550four »
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline SF

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Great start by doing motor first, what type of build are you doing?
92 wr250 sold
98 zx6r sold
04 zx10r
73 cb350 twin
75 cb550f
75 cb550f
72 r5c
rgid springer bobber project

Offline bryanj

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Cam follower wear is odd look at the rocker spindles in the cam cover, they have been known to wear. Brown marks no problem just glaze bust the bores and re-ring. use the best shifter forks you have and as suggested check out all the bearings-look closely at the dogs on the gears for rounding and wear
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!