Author Topic: CB550k Hanging Idle  (Read 13501 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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CB550k Hanging Idle
« on: June 01, 2014, 04:00:41 PM »
Bike starts and idles fine. But as soon as I bring it up to, let's say, 3000 RPM it stays there...I think indefinitely. Same with 4000 or 5000 or any RPM I bring it to. But the throttle snaps back perfectly and cables aren't hanging up. It feels like the carb slides are going up but not coming back down, but that's not the case. I can bring the idle back down by covering up the air inlet on the air box with my hand.

I was thinking air leak but I took propane and aimed it around all the boots and manifold with no change in RPM.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 05:26:33 PM »
Just some more info: today I pulled the carbs and rebuilt them. I thought that would help with the hanging idle, but they needed it anyway. I bench synced them with a drill bit but have yet to vacuum sync them. Should I do that before trying to diagnose the idle hanging?

Is carb cleaner better to use for air leak testing than propane?


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 05:58:07 PM »
I cured a hanging idle issue with my 78 CB550 with a vacuum sync.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2014, 04:18:23 PM »
Hmm, tried to do a sync but the motor doesn't hold a steady idle. It revs up and down. Up to about 4-5k and down to 1k. For a sync I'd imagine you'd need a rock steady idle.

I also was spraying carb cleaner around the boots and no seeming raise or drop in rpm. 


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 02:02:40 PM »
I had the same issue and it turned out to be a bad vacuum leak in one of the carb bodies.
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Offline Ecks

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 03:52:46 PM »
The problem certainly does smell of a carb balance (aka sync) issue.  The job will be a bit more difficult if the engine keeps hunting, but not unreasonably so.  A cylinder pulling abnormal vacuum will show about the same relative reading relative to the others regardless of engine speed, so long as your throttles are mostly closed as they should be for idling.  If you haven't already, have a check of the pilot jet settings, as well as float height.  I went through a similar problem, and while a vacuum sync improved the symptoms greatly, it wasn't until I adjusted an out-of-spec float that the idle performance was really satisfactory. 

Offline Grabcon

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 04:06:11 PM »
I just went through this same issue on a 1978 CB550. It turned out to be the spark advance. Pulled it out and cleaned it put it back in and the issue was gone. It was gummed up ahs the grease was hard. I marked the timing with a marker before pulling thins apart. I hunted for the for a long time to resolve.

I also shortened the little springs on the spark advance by a half turn. Advised by Hondaman.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 06:42:59 PM »
Thanks guys. Grabcon, I pulled apart the spark advance the other day and it was actually super clean. I cleaned it a bit and reinstalled it.

I pulled the carbs again today and double checked the floats, did another bench sync and (what I didn't do before) pulled out the idle jets - cleaned the hell out of them and reinstalled. They were pretty corroded. Tomorrow morning I'm going to start it up and see if I can do a sync.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline wjustinleigh

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 08:48:46 PM »
I'm very interested to know how this goes, I have a 72 cb500 with what seems like a similar problem.  The carbs have been completely cleaned and rebuilt twice.  I had replaced the slow jets, but went back to the originals - which did seem to improve the situation.  I've cleaned the advancer and tighted the springs as I read in these forums as it was pretty loose.  I swapped out the points for dyno then swapped out the coils for the same.  Still idle/advance issues.

When I start mine cold it won't rev at all for a little bit, even 1/4 throttle will kill it.  After just a minute it's great and idles fine for about 10 minutes of riding, then it won't come down off advance unless I put it in gear and let the clutch out a little to force it back down to idle.  Then it idles great until the next throttle blip.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 05:24:54 PM »
Ok, so right now I'm out trying to sync the carbs. It's not easy and this is my first time. I have a fan blowing on the engine and headers.

First, I notice that the #4 muffler is very hot. Even the very tip of the muffler will sizzle saliva on your finger. The rest are warm but won't kill you.

Second, at about 2k rpm the #2 carb is a little low and it's hard compensate for it with the other three. It's still revving up to about 3k rpm every so often and when it does the #2 then shoots up. It it normal for it to go out of sync when it's revved?

Should I keep trying to sync them like this or start looking at other things?

Frustration is not fun, haha. But I know this is my first time and I really don't know a lot. So please help! Calling all old timers and/or geniuses!


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Dave Voss

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 09:05:43 PM »
Have you verified that the valves are properly adjusted and that all four cylinders have good compression?  Make sure there aren't any mechanical or ignition issues before spending too much time trying to synch the carbs, as that should be the last step.
-Dave Voss
(past) '78 CB550K4
(past) '75 CB550K1
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 09:22:38 PM »
Hi Dave, yes I verified the timing with my strobe and adjusted the cam chain and valve tappet clearance. As far as compression, I only can feel as I try to turn the motor over by hand that it has good compression. I don't have a compression gauge. The "putt putt putt" out the tale pipes feel about the same and pretty strong. Is that good enough or should I go grab one of those  gauges?


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Dave Voss

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 09:40:11 PM »
It can be difficult to determine compression by feel, it may be normal, but its best to know for sure when troubleshooting, so I would recommend buying or borrowing a gauge to check.  Uneven or low compression will affect carburetor function and efficiency, so its a good parameter to know.
-Dave Voss
(past) '78 CB550K4
(past) '75 CB550K1
(now) '95 R1100RSL

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2014, 04:50:49 AM »
I'll see about the compression gauge. Maybe I'll pick one up later. But just a little more info: when I just rebuilt the carbs everything was in it's factory setting. 90 mains, 42 slows, needle clip position 2nd from top but the floats were set very low. They ranged from 16 to 17mm. I put them back to the stock 12.5mm for the '78 PD46c. Now when I bought it the PO had a 4-1 with open muffler and empty airbox. When I test rode it it ran alright-ish but the it idled around 3500rpm. Now I have the stock chrome 4-4 and a Uni filter and before now it was running just fine. Just hoping that doesn't throw up a red flag.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 05:00:01 AM »
Quote
but the floats were set very low. They ranged from 16 to 17mm.
Now who did that?!
Quote
They ranged from 16 to 17mm
Are you sure?
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 08:11:59 AM »
Who set the floats? I imagine the PO did. Since the bowls were on wrong I bet he opened up the carbs. And while I was in there I saw that the main jet's flat head slot on the #1 carb was almost stripped out that confirms that someone was in there previously. And yeah, my digital micrometer said 17mm, I was blown away and a little scared as to why it was working as well as it was. So I was hesitant to bring them back to stock but I did. My plan was to set everything to factory and get it running perfectly before I do any cafe mods regarding intake and exhaust.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline iron_worker

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 09:35:39 AM »
Strange that it was running at all before ... with those float settings, no filter, and no muffler it should have been running waaayyyyy lean.

What size jets are in it now? I'd almost bet they have been altered from stock.

IW

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 10:17:01 AM »
90 mains, 42 slows, needle clip position 2nd from top and IMS were all 1.25 turns from fully closed. I forgot to mention that I set them to 1.5 turns out as the manual states.

Now I remember that one of the IMS tips was slightly bent. He must have screwed it in too tightly. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's the #4...the one who's muffler is piping hot. I might just go ahead and order one of those from Harisuluv just to eliminate variables.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline iron_worker

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 10:26:20 AM »
Well that's a pretty serious WTF...

I believe stock jetting is 98 main and 38 slow or 100 / 38 for the 550K. Why on earth the PO would go to a smaller main with those mods is beyond me. Maybe your jets are actually drilled?

If you're looking to run a stock air box, stock filter, and 4-4 exhaust with baffle I'd say you would want to be right around the stock jetting.

IW
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 10:39:30 AM by iron_worker »

Offline iron_worker

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2014, 10:33:37 AM »
Ok maybe I may have been looking at the jetting for the non-PD carb generation of 550.

From here I found that the stock jetting is actually 90 / 42:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=124332.0

So, sounds like the PO did a bunch of mods to intake and exhaust and didn't bother jetting to suit.

Anyway, if you have all stock jetting and carb settings and a stock intake and exhaust setup and your bike *still* isn't running right then I would be looking for a vacuum leak. The 500/550s are prone to leaking at the o-ring between the head and carb spigots AFAIK so maybe check that. That bent mixture screw definitely could be a source of a vacuum leak as well so check that too.

IW
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:41:00 PM by iron_worker »

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2014, 11:06:26 AM »
I'm on it! Will post results. Thanks IW


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2014, 12:52:39 PM »
Ok, so right now I'm out trying to sync the carbs. It's not easy and this is my first time. I have a fan blowing on the engine and headers.

First, I notice that the #4 muffler is very hot. Even the very tip of the muffler will sizzle saliva on your finger. The rest are warm but won't kill you.
Until you complete the vacuum sync, its more or less :normal: for some cylinders to get hotter than others.  Syncing is to make them work equally.

Second, at about 2k rpm the #2 carb is a little low and it's hard compensate for it with the other three.
#2 is not adjustable on stock PD carbs.    You MUST match whatever vacuum noted on #2 to each of the others in turn.

It's still revving up to about 3k rpm every so often and when it does the #2 then shoots up. It it normal for it to go out of sync when it's revved?
No, it is not.  They will all rise and fall in unison when sync is achieved.

Should I keep trying to sync them like this or start looking at other things?
Perhaps investigate those IMS deviations noted below.  Some problems will make sync impossible.

90 mains, 42 slows, needle clip position 2nd from top
This should be 3rd from top for stock position

and IMS were all 1.25 turns from fully closed. I forgot to mention that I set them to 1.5 turns out as the manual states.
This may not be open enough for the UNI filter change.  Go to two turns or even 2.5 until you finish the vacuum sync.

Now I remember that one of the IMS tips was slightly bent. He must have screwed it in too tightly. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's the #4...the one who's muffler is piping hot.
This is of some concern, a bent needle or one that was overtightened can damage the carb body where the needle tip inserts, as it is a jet orifice.  I've seen some carbs where the tip was broken off and jammed into the metering hole.  Others had the hole widened.  This is the pilot circuit supply which dominates idle mixture.  If plugged, no mixture is delivered and certainly no vacuum sync is going to be possible with a carb so damaged.
If the hole has been made larger, the adjustment position will not be the same as the other anymore and counting turns will not not work.  There is another method for IMS adjustment, but it's a bit fiddley.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2014, 03:22:50 PM »
Ok, thanks TT, 2-2.5 turns out, got it. I have a new IMS coming so that will be replaced, but as for the potential for the orifice being enlarged...I don't know. There probably isn't an easy way to know of it's slightly larger/misshapen. I'll inspect it for obvious damage and then come back to it later as a possible issue if nothing works.

Regarding the needle position, the FAQ states 2nd groove for the PD46C. So I take it that means 2nd from the bottom?

I know the 2nd carb is the baseline but it was difficult to match them up. Hopefully it'll be easier with the changes you mentioned.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2014, 04:59:33 PM »
Regarding the needle position, the FAQ states 2nd groove for the PD46C. So I take it that means 2nd from the bottom?
Needle clips are specified and referenced from the top of the needle.

I guess the FAQ entry is old.  Honda specifies 3rd groove. 
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550k Hanging Idle
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2014, 05:02:28 PM »
I'll mention that if the IMS carb body orifice hole is plugged with a broken off needle, putting a good IMS in there will bend its tip.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.