Author Topic: Track day bike suspension?  (Read 4608 times)

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Offline DavePhipps

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Track day bike suspension?
« on: June 02, 2014, 02:05:32 PM »
I'm wanting my son and I to do some track days next year. However I do have concerns about suspension and brakes.
First suspension: is there a fully adjustable rear shock set for these old bikes. I've gotten a bit spoiled with adjustable rebound and compression damping on My modified FZR. It does make a world of difference.
Fork springs: progressive or straight wind? Does anyone make a range of these for the old CB?
Brakes: I've got stainless lines, EBC pads and shoes. Any more I can do to make these better?

I  want to make this as safe as I can for my wannabe racer son.
 
Bikes:
90 FZR600 RA
74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 02:35:49 PM »
I'm wanting my son and I to do some track days next year. However I do have concerns about suspension and brakes.
First suspension: is there a fully adjustable rear shock set for these old bikes. I've gotten a bit spoiled with adjustable rebound and compression damping on My modified FZR. It does make a world of difference.
Fork springs: progressive or straight wind? Does anyone make a range of these for the old CB?
Brakes: I've got stainless lines, EBC pads and shoes. Any more I can do to make these better?

I  want to make this as safe as I can for my wannabe racer son.
 
you might want to check the rules and class you want to race at. stock based classes will allow less mods.
shocks: was quite happy with adjustable koni (now Ikon)at the back of my 500/4 racer, there's also race tech, YSS, etc. and of course ohlins made to measure if you want to burn some $$$
i am all for straight rate in the front, you'd want around 0.8-0.9 kg/mm according to weight. front runners fit CBR cartridges in classic racers, for my level i am quite happy with stock dampers with the rebound holes shut off.
main issue i see is stock brakes. dont think EBC make any race compound pads for the stock calipers. i tried ferodo platinum pads from vibntage brakes initially and they kinda helped. But eventually you'll see the stock discs and flag calipers are a pretty weak setup and youll want to go with bigger discs and lockheed or bembo calipers. quite a bit of work involved.

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 02:50:49 PM »
Not racing, just track days and spirited road riding. If he's inspired by the track days we may go vintage racing. My FZR is still setup for safety wiring and have the race glass in the shed so it's there if he wants it. It's funny Both the FZR and the old CB are considered vintage by WERA.

My son and I are about the same weight 178 pounds. I  really want to be able to set sag with alternate springs front and back. Does Ikon have those and is there and damping adjustment out back?
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 04:49:36 AM »
i apply the same principles for both my street rides and racers :)

for sag upfront, just cut cheap PVC tubing to the right length.

ikons have SOME damping adjustment (no separate circuits), you can ask them to recommended the spring rates for you. preload adjustment is on a rotating collar with bumps. dont expect the same tune-ability as in your fzr (that's part of the charm)

just check their site for more info ;)

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 10:12:24 PM »
Thanks guys. Looking everything up now.
TG, I thought about using PVC pipe for preload adjustment but was afraid of the plastic shattering in the tube. What type of plastic tubing do you use?

I did find exactly the shock that I want but can't afford it.
http://www.yssusa.com/series-g.html

G-362 TRWL Twin — Gas Twin Shock Absorber

 I need to get out of school and get a real job, so I can afford  this stuff.
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78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline scottly

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 10:22:36 PM »
Do you already have dual front brakes? That's probably the best upgrade. If you want to stay with a single, a larger 750 rotor with matching caliper will bolt right on to a 550.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 10:31:47 PM »
Do you already have dual front brakes? That's probably the best upgrade. If you want to stay with a single, a larger 750 rotor with matching caliper will bolt right on to a 550.

And add a sh1t load of weight.... ;D :o
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Offline scottly

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 10:37:02 PM »
Added weight or not, duals are worth it, IMHO.  ;D Lighter rotors are also an option.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 10:40:33 PM »
Added weight or not, duals are worth it, IMHO.  ;D Lighter rotors are also an option.

For sure, not knocking the duals, doesn't Godfrey or one of the members do lightened rotors...?
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 10:41:34 PM »
I'm looking into lockheed or grimeca calipers and alternate disc setup. I'll probably be going through many race build threads to find more info on fitting these.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 10:53:09 PM »
It's not easy to fit other calipers to the CB forks...
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 11:02:01 PM »
Bwaller and Tuboguzzi both have found or made brackets to fit brembo calipers on these bikes. With a bit of searching some PMS and a lot of reading I should be able to find some good info.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 11:05:30 PM »
I said it was not easy. I didn't say it was impossible. ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 01:19:42 AM »
Bwaller and Tuboguzzi both have found or made brackets to fit brembo calipers on these bikes. With a bit of searching some PMS and a lot of reading I should be able to find some good info.

Leave PMS out of it for christs sake Dave.    :o ;D ;)
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 04:54:05 AM »
Bwaller and Tuboguzzi both have found or made brackets to fit brembo calipers on these bikes. With a bit of searching some PMS and a lot of reading I should be able to find some good info.
Actually mounting Brembo's is not hard to do once you know what to do :) can send you my file for the caliper hangers if you need.
A relatively cheap disc upgrade is 80's suzuki discs. much lighter and not that much work to fit on the honda hub.

see both here
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=44616.msg470555#msg470555

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2014, 07:11:12 AM »
PMS? Arghh.... NO!
On a serious note. TG I would love that file. What format is it in?
Also would you please tell me what type of tubing you use for preload adjustment?

On Suspension I know what I want but will end up with what I need due to money.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2014, 07:47:01 AM »
Ju
PMS? Arghh.... NO!
On a serious note. TG I would love that file. What format is it in?
Also would you please tell me what type of tubing you use for preload adjustment?

On Suspension I know what I want but will end up with what I need due to money.
just normal gray drain pipe PVC, choose the largest diameter that will fit and put a large washer between the spring and tube.

i have the file as adobe illustrator but can export pdf, dxf, or whatever format really. just print the pdf, spray tack it and make first a 5/16" plywood template to check fit. you could easily modify it to any other caliper but the small F05 brembos are cheap and easy to find.
pm me your email address.

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2014, 08:36:31 AM »
I can read any format, so it's up to you. Either attach to the thread or send it in a PM.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2014, 01:05:58 PM »
pm sent

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2014, 06:14:36 PM »
Email sent.
Also a few more questions. What master cylinder size would you use with the brembos?
Now for a new question. I despise steel rims for spirited riding, so alloy wheels will be in the future. What rim/tire sizes would you guys recommend for uses with the standard hubs?

TG I know it's not period, but at a casual glance it looks like my spare 92 FZR600 discs might fit the CB front hub. I'll do a trial fitment this weekend.   
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2014, 06:50:41 PM »
I bought a brand new 12mm Brembo master and the feel is perfect with twin F05's. It was $100 a few years ago. I use a WM3 front, WM4 rear rim. I recently switched from a 90/90/18 front Avon to a 110/80. Rear is 130/65. I doubt the FZR rotors bolt up, but as TG mentioned earlier Suzuki rotors from the 80's fit with a little help, have the same offset, are thinner & lighter.

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2014, 07:38:57 PM »
Thanks Brent, that was some great info.
I'll probably have the CB rolling in a month and then start collecting and fabbing parts for a winter build.
I'll have to do this slowly as my funding is very slim. I think it will be worth it in the end.
I'll feel better knowing that my son will actually have adequate brakes on his first track outing next year. 
Bikes:
90 FZR600 RA
74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2014, 04:02:45 AM »
I have completed the build of the 500/4 racer with very little budget, think most expenisve part was the megacycle cam.

if you dont go into the engine, then you can upgrade the cycle part for track worthiness with not that much money, a set of used konis (can be rebuilt) would be your main expense.

stock rims will simply limit your choice of rubber, try to see if you can re-cycle off-road rims in the right dimensions, many MXers have 18" rears in all kind of widths

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2014, 08:01:28 PM »
okay , back again with another brake question. What is the Grimeca copy of the F05?

TG I'm not really touching the engine on this bike. I'm working on suspension and braking. Handling first then speed later.
I'm still trying to find all your HiPo threads on your bike build. You're all over the place with those.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 04:56:30 AM »
check also howell's racer build thread

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2014, 05:14:02 AM »
Will do, thanks for reminding me of that one.
Starting the rebuild today. Time for my son to get his hands dirty.
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension? And more!
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2014, 07:12:36 AM »
Hey, I've got more questions!!! these aren't just suspension and brake questions though. There may a new job looming over the horizon that will allow me to do more with the bike. The son will still be riding the 500, but there is a 550 in the shed calling to me.
Now onto the fun.
Bike geometry changes. 18 inch front rim, longer and shorter forks, longer rear shocks, and alternate triple trees with different offsets. What's good or bad? Rake and trail info would be handy.
Frame On the 500/550 frames what to brace, what to get rid of and any frame related advice.
Controls Stock throttle would probably be terrible. Quarter turn throttle? Suggestions on brands?
EngineI've got a 550 engine with a 650 head sitting next to it. Dynoman make a 572 piston kit for this. Should porting be in the future for this setup? Cam suggestions, and how would all this effect my exhaust choices? For the increased air flow and larger bore would a larger diameter exhaust be needed?.
Carbs Considering future engine mods what carb size would be good? I've seem the VM26 and 29 on some and people raving and ranting about their CRs. Size and type suggestions, and where do you find the VM 26 carbs?

If there's anything else you can think of throw it in. I'm looking at WERA classes and the 550/650 engine is allowed in a few of them. Also they have more races near me than anyone else that I can find.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:47:36 AM by DavePhipps »
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2014, 08:41:47 AM »
big list...

indeed, most of the info you are looking for is in bwaller's, howell's and my threads essentially.

eye to eye of about 14" in the back will set you about right, you will want triples with about 10mm less trail than stock due to the steeper head angle. good or bad? no magic figures, you will have to hit the track and see/fine tune what works for you. online calculators will not tell you how grip at tire edge will feel :)
bracing is tempting and i did mine, but after seeing how fast unbraced ones can be ridden and win races in the right hands, i'd say not a must. makes you feel better mostly :)

dont think that any of the kit pitons available out there will get you proper racing CR ratios (like 12:1 and above) as they are street oriented. Again, those threads have plenty info on the little that's out there. or start looking into all the monkey bike big bore kits with 15mm pins out there / make your own like brent.

VM26s (they are 27mm actually) can give excellent power, but if you have the dosh, then go for CR 29s, there's only one type... CR26 would be better for street use,




Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2014, 01:03:16 PM »
Let's hope I get the new job, so I can afford all this.
Thanks for the geometry suggestion TG, and the geometry calculator info Cal.
I've been looking through all the threads I can find but I'm still at a loss for piston size and shape. I'm using the 550 cylinders with the 650 head. Dynoman has a 60mm piston kit that will give 11.5:1 cr. That may be the easiest option. I've been searching for 4 hours and haven't come across a thread where the 550 is taken out to ~600cc using the 650 head and 550 cylinders.
Cal I'll be doing lots of reading about balancing this system before I start. Part of the reason for this thread is to give me a head start on that.


 
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74 CB550k
78 GL1000
72 CB500K

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2014, 01:17:55 PM »
the reason you are not finding a 650 headed 600 racer is that its not the best option... the combustion chambers are bigger and you'll be hard pressed to find pistons with high enough crowns that will give you 12:1 compression. the dynoman slugs will give 11.5 on a 550 head not on a 650 head
not sure it would be ahrma legal either, check...
a 650 head will work with much higher displacements like paul ages 730 or something, look for his build

considering bwaller is getting 70  rwhp something out of his 550 headed 600, it's not exactly a problem to stick with a massaged stock head.

maybe the dynoman is after all your best option, deck the block and/or the head a bit and you might get 12:1 or more. never seen those pistons up close though

« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 01:19:42 PM by turboguzzi »

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2014, 01:46:21 PM »
Not going AHRMA, they have odd rules about disc brakes. I would have to go drum even though the bike was produced with disc, odd.

I'll go through Brent's thread again. I think I missed the piston info. My eyes are starting to glaze over from reading so many threads today.

From the dynoman website
Bore in piston kit for CB550 engines using CB650 cylinder head.

Features:
- Lateral Gas Porting
- Accumulator Grooves
- Contact Reduction Grooves
- Broached pin supports
   for superior oiling
- Made in the USA
- No re-sleeving required!
- Lightweight 168g

Not sure what they are like or how domed they are. They don't even have a picture of them. I really don't want to go super domed as it seem that it would interfere with air/gas flow in the chamber.
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2014, 05:24:45 PM »
D-man does have those 60mm pistons for a 650 head. They need a large dome to fill the large combustion chamber, no other choice. I don't know anyone who uses those pistons but a friend I race with bought the 60mm 1:11.5CR 550 pistons and his engine makes the same power as mine. Among other people I spoke to Buzz years ago, before he started with any 550 stuff, so I designed my own pistons and had them made.

Dr. Tom Marquardt ran his 550/650 out to the AHRMA class limit of 685cc. It was a potent combination of bike & rider. He doesn't race it anymore though. He told me he always had leaky base gasket problems at that bore size.

I think with some work my 572 could make 75rwhp, but those extra three ponies come at a high price. At this point the engine is dead reliable, and actually quite docile. I'll not mess with it .....for now! I thought about building a 550 based engine to use with a 650 head. That piece is vastly improved over the 550 head and with even larger carbs should easily push HP into the low eighties. The problem is dealing with various engine components originally built with 36-38HP in mind. I expect reliability issues would surface.  :P. You'll possibly have to make a pipe for that head, I don't know of any available?? The Kerker primary tube diameter is larger so maybe it could work, I never tried it against a 650 head.

My wife's 592 (61mm pistons) is a mild 51rwhp (stock carbs etc) but ended up being exactly what she needed, a wide power band, easy to ride, just like the original only with 27% more power. It's no pouch! Keep in mind the more power you make, the narrower the accessible power band becomes especially when you get into large carbs. Not that it becomes really difficult, but needs to be ridden differently on the race track.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:37:58 PM by bwaller »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2014, 02:22:54 AM »
big list...

indeed, most of the info you are looking for is in bwaller's, howell's and my threads essentially.

eye to eye of about 14" in the back will set you about right, you will want triples with about 10mm less trail than stock due to the steeper head angle. good or bad? no magic figures, you will have to hit the track and see/fine tune what works for you. online calculators will not tell you how grip at tire edge will feel

Actually, it is well known what trail does and having an idea of where it is is a good thing, too little trail is bad for stability and too much is bad for turn in, somewhere around 3.75 to 4 inches is a reasonably good start, You don't want triples with less Trail because you already have less trail with the steeper steering head angle, you want less OFFSET in the triple clamps to add a bit of trail to maintain stability...  ;)
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2014, 03:39:39 AM »
ok, must have missed that, obviously wasnt aware that DM's pistons were designed with for 650 heads.

when the highest intake velocities are developed, piston is mid stroke far from the head, so crown shouldn't impact flow. you should see the crowns on a manx norton or G50, those were tall....

but with tall & steep crowns, it's not easy to get well controlled squish areas, so pay attention to that, makes a world of difference on how detonation prone the  motor will be.

it does sound like a relatively hassle free path then.

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2014, 06:56:46 AM »
Retro I'll be getting the 3d program out this weekend and make a simulation for measurements with different wheel sizes and shock lengths. OK, I'll be doing that after I work on my kids electrics on his 500.

TG after reading your post i went around and read a boatload of articles on squish.  I've seen suggestions of .06 .05 and .03.
What are the clearance you and Brent use?

Brent I already have a header for the bike I think. I'll just need to make a midpipe, cone and baffle for it.
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2014, 07:45:07 AM »
What brand of pipe do you have to work with the 650 head? You can be creative making a midpipe. I have used both old swimming pool ladder siderails (2" OD) and "milk pipe" from a dairy (2" ID). Both thin walled stainless steel. The pool ladder rails have great corners to cut & weld together. Milk pipe have various elbows available to cut & do the same.

Be careful of tight squish values. The last race of my first season I revved higher on the straight to compensate for gearing and the pistons just kissed the head. Just enough to clean the crown in similar spots on each piston. There had been adequate clearance. In talking to Mike Rieck the only explanation is that this was due to rod stretch. I now run even tighter clearances but with Carillo rods. I have machined the piston squish angle a couple times to hopefully work most efficiently, plus worked individual combustion chambers by hand to try to even squish values around the circumference.  I measure in 8 spots and have between 0.030 to 0.034". I'm pretty sure TG ran very tight clearance in his too.

Offline DavePhipps

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2014, 08:07:08 AM »
Here's my odd header that came with the 500. It fits the 500 perfectly but there seems to be more clearance underneath like it's made for a deeper sump. The tubes are a larger diameter but the inlets are butted so the inlet ID is the same as the 500. The PO cut it off at the end of the collector.

That's a cb500/550 Mac on the left.
I'll probably go cone engineering for the pipes. I don't have a pool and the local dairy closed decades ago. I miss that place. Great chocolate milk.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:08:40 AM by DavePhipps »
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Track day bike suspension?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2014, 09:18:06 AM »
around 035 in my bikes.
over 045-050 squish stops doing much,

but until you have both head and pistons in your hands, it'll be hard to do much planning.  it's not just the distance but also the amount of area in the piston that can be regarded as squish. inform your self by reading on two stroke squish bands first, easier to grasp the concept there.