Author Topic: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End  (Read 9067 times)

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Offline Ricky_Racer

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CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« on: June 12, 2014, 07:19:14 PM »
I really could use some input, probably from Geeto since he has some experience with the Harley XR750TT.

I recently picked up a set of NOS Harley XR750TT adapter plates to mount CB750 brake arms and calipers on 35mm Ceriani Roadrace Forks. I was originally going to mount a specially machined GT750 4LS front drum to the Cerianis but now would prefer to go the dual disk route.

Does anyone have any information on the Honda brake equipped XR750TT? I know it used CB750 rotors; did it also use the CB750 front hub? My Cerianis have 175mm tube centers; did the Harley use a special triple tree width so the rotors lined up with the calipers?

This is kind of an exotic setup that hasn't been seen in decades and I'm having trouble finding the specifics. Does anyone have any info? Thanks in advance! RR
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Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 07:33:39 PM »
Can you provide a pic of those on the forks? Are you set on stock calipers? Lockheed calipers are very easy to adapt just as I have done on my build thread. Just a thought.
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Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 07:42:09 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Slik. No pics, but the Cerianis look like every other set of 35mm RR forks with a single set of "donuts." With the CB750 calipers mounted to the H-D adapters, they'll look just like the ones in this photo.

I'm well acquainted with the AP Racing (Lockheed) calipers; I have them on my Rickman-Honda. But I'm specifically in need of info on fitting the CB750 early calipers and arm. RR
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Offline 754

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 10:35:43 PM »
Ted can you measure the center to center of the Rickman fork if its a 41mm, and the offset. Is it a single disc?
 There was a thread with a pic of the XrTT today, it had the Morris wheel..
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Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 10:55:17 PM »
Hi, Frank. I'm not using the Rickman fork. I'm fitting the Honda brakes to a Ceriani 35mm RR front end. The Rickman front is staying right where it is...

What I'm really trying to determine is 1) did Harley use a CB750 front hub on the XR750TT and 2) will the 175mm Ceriani fork centers work with the CB750 hub. But yes, the Rickman uses a single Girling disk and yes, the Rickman has a centered hub although neither is germane to what I'm trying to determine.

If I find that the Honda hub is too wide, I may resort to using a set of EPM, PVM or Morris wheels assuming the centers aren't as wide as the standard CB750 hub. Hopefully though, I'll be able to use the standard Honda hub with an aluminum rim. Part of the reason I'm concerned with the fork spacing is that even the GT750 front drum had to have part of the speedometer drive machined away to fit the Cerianis.

Eventually though, I'm probably just going to have to mock up the front end and see where the rotors end up. Then I'll know how to proceed. I'd hate to think I'd have to find a wider set of Ceriani triple trees. :(  Thanks. RR
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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 11:13:44 PM »

If I find that the Honda hub is too wide, I may resort to using a set of EPM, PVM or Morris wheels assuming the centers aren't as wide as the standard CB750 hub.
Ted, my Morris hub mimics the standard CB750 hub in width.
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Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 12:25:59 AM »
Yeah, Bro, so is mine. I was just thinking that it'd be a lot less painful to take a couple slices of the sides of a stock hub than it would be on a Morris... Well, as I said, I guess I'll just have to throw this thing together and see where the cards land.

Geeto had mentioned in another thread that he'd been up close and personal with an XR750TT. Maybe he'll chime in later. Thanks everyone. RR
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 05:20:01 AM »
RR, i guess you have your reasons, but honestly, CNC adapters dont look very period IMHO. Never mind how awful that install in the pic looks to me... what a contraption to just hold the calipers...

cant see why you dont want to go the Lockheed route: cleaner looking, better braking and will look period.

explanation? not that you have to, just curious.... 

Offline Tintop

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 05:27:50 AM »
Don't know if you have seen this before in your search, but it was the only pics I could find of a disk brake XR750TT.

http://raresportbikesforsale.com/old-school-1972-harley-davidson-xr750tt-road-race-replica/
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline 754

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2014, 08:10:57 AM »
First step, measure outside of a dual disc on a honda 4, then check that against the Ceriani. If that is too wide some shaving of backside of rotors or hub, will have to happen.
 When I mounted a 6piston caliper and floating disc to ne last year it was very very tight.
I found, laced wheels, wider the flanges, less caliper clearance..but further out on the diameter gets more room.
 In the end this is what happened..of the three, Honda K hub, Morris Honda front, Yamaha mag (like Lester)
....the Yamaha mag has the thinnest cross section for clearance to back of calipers.

 RR the thread with the pics of XRTT is in the GL1000 vs CB750 fork....thread.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:19:14 AM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline 754

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 08:29:01 AM »
Clearance to spokes for back of caliper, should not be  problem with the Honda calipers. Here is a pic of the area of concern.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 09:25:00 AM »
Thanks for all the responses. You guys rock! Like I said, I guess I'll just play with the parts and see how it comes out. Early checks suggest that the conversion will go well. We'll see after all is said and done.  RR
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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2014, 08:36:10 PM »
Found this pic and scanned it at a decent resolution; this XR didn't use a Honda caliper:
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Offline 754

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2014, 08:43:09 PM »
See the red sticker on the fork leg? Looks like. The newer remake cerianis... So may be a more recent build..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2014, 09:16:21 PM »
Yeah, I think you're right, Frank. I believe they are the IIRC "Forcella" or they are the ones manufactured by Menani. TG would be the best source for the Italian inside scoop.

The front caliper on that XR750 looks a lot like "Grizzley" brand caliper I have, but it also could be a Brembo. I really can't tell from the photo.

Interesting that all the photos of XR750RR's I've seen have a solid caliper bracket whereas the black supposedly "Yoshimura" supposedly "endurance racer" in the earlier photo uses floating brackets that look similar to the ones I have. I was told that the adapters were H-D parts but now I'm starting to think they might have been made by/for someone else. Fun to think about. RR
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Offline 754

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2014, 09:27:12 PM »
Might be Grimeca calipers.  I think they got a away with flat brackets, that could flex sideways, due to constant checking of components.. The stock Honda setup, sometimes goes years between any maintenance.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2014, 09:42:15 PM »
Makes sense to me, Frank. Plus the manufactures have all those liability issues... RR
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 11:50:29 AM »
like many moto things around here, ceriani's story is a bit of a soap opera.... menani's stuff is made by paioli, while in the US, storz holds rights to the name.

found this bit of info when i bought a very good looking used monoshock for my XT600 supermoto, just couldnt figure out who where GCB until i found this document, read on..

"Arturo Ceriani (pronounced ‘cherry ahni’) was said to be an employee of MV Augusta who was asked
to leave in 1951 so that he could supply MV with suspension parts and magnesium wheel hubs. In 1964
Arturo’s son Enrico took charge of the company and built a new plant in Samarate, Italy. While the com
-
pany was known to the end users as ‘Ceriani,’ within the suspension industry the company was known
as ‘ARCES.’ This name came from ARturo CEriani of Samarate. This is why the early original Ceriani triple
trees have the word ‘ARCES’ cast in on the underside of the lower triple. By 1972 Ceriani had sold 100,000
suspension units, but the demand outstripped their production capacity allowing competitors to poach
their market and by 1980 the Ceriani plant closed. In 1981 Enrico sold the remaining assets to Forcelle
Italia which produced the 38, 40 and 42mm Ceriani fork under license. Forcelle Italia went out of business
around 1995. The name stayed for sale until 1997 when it was purchased by Paioli. Meanwhile, Enrico in
1987 formed a partnership called G.C.B. Special Forks (Gazzaniga, Ceriani and Bianchi) which lasted for
a decade. During this time you could buy a 35mm road racing fork made by G.C.B. In 1989 Enrico, with
Steve Storz in the U.S. revived the Ceriani name. Paioli probably did not have the name under trademark
in the U.S. because the U.S. trademark law is based on ‘use’ as opposed to ‘registration.’ Steve, who was a
mechanic and tuner for Kenny Roberts, Don Castro and the Harley Davidson XR750 flat track racing team
became familiar with the forks when the 42mm flat track fork was introduced in 1984. The first U.S. made
Storz/Ceriani fork was introduced in 1998"

Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 12:40:05 PM »
Great story, TG. Ah, Italia!

When I lived in Italy as a wide-eyed young American, I learned that one Italian gave us a soliloquy. Two Italians made for a passionate discussion. Three Italians, an argument. And four Italians, a RIOT!

And I loved every single minute of my time there! What a great country with wonderful people, where the women run the country and the men make incredible art:)  RR

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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 10:36:34 PM »

"Arturo Ceriani (pronounced ‘cherry ahni’)
I had always thought Cherry Annie was a mispronunciation!
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Offline nippon

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2014, 09:23:35 AM »
Hi Ted,

maybe you remember my solution for a very narrow front hub in a Geriani fork.
I have used a Moto Guzzi hub (cheap) and made adapter plates to use CB750 brake discs.
Enough clearance now. I have used Lockheed calipers, but i think it works with any other calipers, too.

nippon

Offline jaguar

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2014, 10:32:03 AM »
I have also seen some of the old Harley race bikes, and some defiantly did use a honda caliper.
Unsure exactly how that came to be.

Ill give Geeto a call and direct him over here.
Im sure he has some information.

Offline Geeto67

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2014, 10:48:18 AM »
I really could use some input, probably from Geeto since he has some experience with the Harley XR750TT.

Does anyone have any information on the Honda brake equipped XR750TT? I know it used CB750 rotors; did it also use the CB750 front hub?

IIRC the ones I worked on used a special Morris Mag for racing, different from the Morris's supplied to HD for their street bikes. I have seen ones that used a stock cb750 front hub though, I think over at Jamie Water's place so it wouldn't have been a bike I worked on (even though it carries the T.O. decal).

there is a very small pic of one on my buddy greaser mike's visit to spannerland a couple of years ago:
http://greasermike.blogspot.com/2010_12_01_archive.html

here is a different angle from a different blog:


As you can see Cal Rayborn's bike has a much different setup using the Morris's I mentioned and a SOHC cb750 caliper:


as far as the triple clamps, IIRC they all used ARCES smooth top trees, but as to whether those come in different widths, I'm stumped.

Sadly I'm not in NY anymore so I don't have the access to just pop down to TO and take some pics for you. At one point I did have detailed photos of all the cb750 caliper setups but that harddrive crashed 2 years ago and I just haven't been able to pay someone to recover it.
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Offline jaguar

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2014, 10:51:50 AM »
Didnt one of the bikes use a CB caliper on the rear too?

Offline Geeto67

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2014, 10:54:41 AM »
I have also seen some of the old Harley race bikes, and some defiantly did use a honda caliper.
Unsure exactly how that came to be.


That stems from Dick O'Brien and the HD race shop in 1969. From what I was told, cb750 calipers and rotors were cheaper and more available than compared to some of the higher end airheart/grimeca stuff. and much easier to service than the high end drums they were using at the time. HD's race shop was always fighting for money esp with the roll out of the xr750 road racers so any cheap and available solution was embraced. I only think they were used for a couple of years but can't be certain.

Things were also inconsistent from year to year. the TO Cal bike was just one of the many Road race bikes he used and I think that one is from the 71 or 72 season. I know earlier rayborn bikes still used the 4ls drum. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 10:57:26 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2014, 11:00:43 AM »
Didnt one of the bikes use a CB caliper on the rear too?

Maybe, it's entirely possible. I think Cal's Iron XR had a drum front and a disc rear. None of this stuff was consistent. It was all hand made. I don't remember what the XR 909 runs but that isn't a "factory" bike anyway. By the time of the BOTTs era SOHC calipers were long abandoned.
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Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2014, 11:28:39 AM »
Thanks, Jag and Geeto! I haven't found time to mock up the CB750 front hub in the Cerianis yet so the info that you, Geeto, remember a CB front hub being used helps a lot. I happen to have a few sets of Morris wheels as well so I may just also play with that combination.

BTW, the GT750 front 4LS I originally was going to use with the Cerianis is actually too wide for the forks. It required milling about half of the speedo drive from the 4LS side plate to fit!

Thanks again, Guys. RR
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2014, 12:10:23 PM »
FWIW I have a 4LS racing drum (I am having a senior moment and can't remember if it is a ceriani or a gremica) that was mounted to ceriani forks and an arces top clamp. in fact my arces top clamp and forks went on a TO XR750. I even have the fender and brake stay bracket (one piece) made by Todd Schuster (of butler and smith BMW fame). It wouldn't be cheap but it would be Pukka race bike pieces with a history (the brake was run on David Goldstein's H1 racer in AMA and AHRMA).  It's not strictly for sale but I might be persuaded depending on the project.

here is a pic of when it was assembled:


I have the axle, the fender/brake bracket, and the wheel (with tire as you see it). I'm converting to disc brakes on the bike (kz650 forks and ex500 calipers) so I don't know if I'll ever use it again.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 12:13:38 PM by Geeto67 »
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Offline Ricky_Racer

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2014, 12:20:28 PM »
It's a Grimeca 230 4LS, Geeto. Darn, I was hoping it might be a Ceriani! Oh well, check your PM's anyway, Bud... RR
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Offline Henkies

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2018, 11:33:34 AM »
Hi Ted,

maybe you remember my solution for a very narrow front hub in a Geriani fork.
I have used a Moto Guzzi hub (cheap) and made adapter plates to use CB750 brake discs.
Enough clearance now. I have used Lockheed calipers, but i think it works with any other calipers, too.

nippon

Old thread, but valuable information perhaps for mounting modern calipers and legs while retaining a narrow fork.
- Which Guzzi models's have this hub?
- Is it a split hub design? 
- Does it have the same disk bolt pattern or did you make new spacers?
- Won't it be less stable with such a narrow spoke pattern? 

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:13:52 PM by Henkies »

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2018, 11:53:29 AM »
The Grimeca disc hub was used on Guzzi and Ducati, probably more. They are under $200 online. Just search and you should come up with some options.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: CB750 Brakes on Ceriani RR Front End
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2018, 01:29:24 PM »
most mid to big sized 70's italian bikes (guzzi, ducati, morini, laverda)  used this hub.
In our italian championship many race with it today without problems. I think it's among the few hubs that will let you fit opposed piston calipers and still have clearance to the spokes. no magic here, if you want to use a wider hub you will have to offset the discs outwards and maybe find wider spaced triple clamps... not sure whats the lesser evil

motocicliveloci seems to stock  the parts

http://www.motocicliveloci.it/inglese/catalogue/ruoteparts_uk.htm