Author Topic: To pod or not to pod!  (Read 7770 times)

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Offline zstoldt

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2014, 10:07:27 AM »
What year is the bike we are talking about?

Then we can talk about jetting.

It is a 1974 cb750k.

It had two pods and two open carbs when I purchased it.
-Zak

Offline RJ CB450

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2014, 11:21:31 AM »

The K&N's should be here today. I'm going to try them out.

If I get bad results, I will check my jets.

Expect some pictures later today.

I did some research on tuning. Do you guys have any rules of thumb or tips when tuning carbs?

Yup, your situation is the type where we can see if we can get pods working.  In fact, it is the type of project bike I want to pick up.  Missing key parts like airbox, etc so I don't ruin a complete bike.

Despite what everybody says, Tuning carburetors isn't so much difficult, but you must remember it is more like art.  Those with a bit of money can do the full dyno tuning with A/F mapping through the rev range, but for average Joe, don't want to spend a grand on getting carbs done.

So, even without much experience, we can walk you through the steps to re-jetting a carb.  If you have a keen ear, and feel of hand, you can tune a carb with patience.  My 650, Probably a month of evening rides, etc to get them dialed in to being oh so sweet and running excellent mix.  No fancy tools other than a carb sync.

So, to tune and dial in your carbs, will want some bits and bobs first.

1.  All the standard carb tuning tools.  So ability to syncro and adjust the various adjustments.  At this point, more info on your bike so we know the carbs could help.

2.  Save yourself some time, and probably money and see if you can find a jetting kit.  This way you have an assortment and don't need to fight with one at a time finding jets.

3.  Know anybody with a big fan or blower?  Airflow will keep the worry about overheating.
 
Now thing to remember is that the different fuel circuits all work together as the powerband progresses.  Here is a good picture to sort of explain what I mean.  Keep the concept in your head.  Just a random one I grabbed, but should be good.



So jetting.  First thing is to get it to idle.  You have to sync it before anything else.  If carbs not syncronized, then will be alot more difficult to tell adjustment.

So if syncronized, adjust pilot screw.  Simple enough to do here.  If like other carbs I worked on, 1.5 turns from seat default.  If more a turn in from this, then you need smaller jet because are too rich.  With pods, expect to be running lean.  So adjust out until idle smooths, etc.  You can feel this from the exhaust and hear it as popping.  If you go more than 3 turns out (so 1.5 turns from your default) you can up your idle jet size a step.  Do so until you are within that 1.5-3 turns from seat.  This should get your bottom end going.

So this should get your bottom end running proper provided the airflow through the carb is decent.  One concern I thought up, and would explain the earlier discussion is resonance.  While the filter might meet the cfm, the total air capacity might not be enough to feed the cylinder resulting in insufficient pulse flow (so total CFM might be #, but pulse CFM might be 3*#).  Re-sync your carb and adjust.

Following this, you have your main jet and needle  Mechanical linkage can be adjusted and tuned for partial throttle.  Vacuum operated, you are at the mercy of vacuum.  One reason why CV carbs dislike pods.  If you have good source of airflow to keep bike cool, can do mid-range with just neutral.  Never have in gear on stand, one accidental lean and bike takes off.  Without airflow, then partial throttle runs.  Mid throttle is usually where you do this testing at lower speeds.  Check plugs and exhaust for richening.  If you have a buddy, can often smell if rich.  Plugs hopefully will show lean if not contaminated bad from idle setting.  Get this running smooth.

Finish up by doing above for rides with more full throttle.  Do a bit of a highway run.  Once more check plugs and do like above.  Probably wouldn't hurt to clean plugs between for better accuracy.

After all is done, you might end up with some hills or valleys in your fuel mix.  I myself am a slight bit gurgly in third at 50km/h (3200rpmish) and smooth for the rest of the power curve.  Nothing I can do about that really, Just a slight rich point where the rest of the curve runs stoic.

Remember, the worst that can happen is cannot get it to work and you put the old jets back in, start over, and you learn alot.  That is the best part about reviving something vintage!  It will not run perfect, and there is so much for I/R carburetors that maximizing what you have is the important part.  Also remember, a little rich just means you get poorer mileage, maybe slight power reduction and some fine soot in your exhaust.

But lean is mean.  Better to be slightly rich.
74 CB450 K7 Supersport, 82 CB650sc Nighthawk, 1982 CBX 1000, 2015 Tiger XCx.... And some ol minibike with a 5hp Briggs.

Offline RJ CB450

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2014, 11:33:13 AM »
Okie, the 750's are sort of my arch nemesis, so somebody correct me if I am off on this.  It is a 1974, but is it like my 450 where you had multiple K models in a year?  I am basing the following information on the hypothesis it is a k4 750.

Appears to be mechanically operated and as such, probably adjustable shafts?  If so, then this is good.  One issue with the main jet and needle is that they work together.  So on vacuum operated, if you jet for one part working, odds are the other end will be way off.  For yours, you can sort of alternate between the two.  Get the needle control tuned in, then jet for main, back to your needle, until you get it running as best as possible.

Most importantly, take your time.  Small trips to prevent burning up something or overheating the bike.  ;D
74 CB450 K7 Supersport, 82 CB650sc Nighthawk, 1982 CBX 1000, 2015 Tiger XCx.... And some ol minibike with a 5hp Briggs.

Offline PeWe

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2014, 12:04:21 PM »
Do not forget the ignition timing before jetting the carbs.
I have learned the hard way that too advanced ignition foul spark plugs. It's too easy to install smaller jets to avoid fouling plugs ending up in an engine that will not deliver any power and will run as crap.

My advancer unit has a play that make difference. (CB750)
I installed it max in clockwise direction and the T, F ' ' marks ~3mm to the right of where they should be. I timed cam correctly but forgot the relative big differences when I timed the ignition.
Advancer unit at max counterclockwise position of its play align with the case index mark correctly. I saw that when I timed the cam. Piston cyl 4 at top, T aligned with the index mark.
Then turned the adv unit max clockwise and made new mark in the case that will align with T  when unit is at max clockwise as I use. F and ' ' align case properly.
WOW, what a difference! I had to jet much richer, power back and not fouling plugs when ignition is correct.

I understand now, 30 years after why I got hole in one piston, almost hole in another, too adv ignition... the hole was on the inlet side of piston top, not exhaust side where a lean engine become hot.  (836cc CR10.5:1  pistons)
I thought it was too lean due to carb boots leakage.

About Pods...OEM box with the rubber velocity stacks is better for a not tuned engine. I do not when this will be an obstacle.
I have Mikuni  VM29 Smoothbore, box does not fit. KN oval pods. Maybe smaller vel stacks inside the pods should do good...

These Mikunis would be nice if I have additional $2500US to spend after all other stuff I want to buy.....
http://www.braigasen.com/TMR3201.gif
http://www.braigasen.com/TMR3202.gif
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline zstoldt

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2014, 03:15:00 PM »
Alright guys,

I just put the K&N pods and took it for a little test drive.

It feels much better than before. It drags less when accelerating and it also idles better.

I can't help but think the carbs were already jetted for pods by the previous owner.

Here are a couple pictures.




-Zak

Offline RJ CB450

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2014, 04:00:34 PM »
It is quite possible actually.  But either way, do proper diagnostic through the rev range.  May idle nice, but if say timing is too much advance and you are running lean, could burn out the engine fast.  Wouldn't hurt to do the full tune and inspect just for that even without rejetting.  Pain to take bowls on and off a bunch of times.
74 CB450 K7 Supersport, 82 CB650sc Nighthawk, 1982 CBX 1000, 2015 Tiger XCx.... And some ol minibike with a 5hp Briggs.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2014, 06:45:40 PM »
I wouldn't assume the carbs are already jetted.  I might be convinced after I examined the spark plug deposits after some test track runs, though.


I like this as a guide.
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

I happen the like the chart below.

I start with getting the main correct as that sets the very most fuel the bike can ever use.  Test track full WOT power runs and look at the plug deposits.  Adjust the size to get the right deposit pattern.

Next is some mid power operation. Mark your throttle so you know what position your slide are at.  This investigation takes longer as the engine isn't making maximum heat (which allows the plugs to self clean).  But, you are still look for no soot build up.

Lastly, the pilot screws are set for the leanest setting that will still make the throttle respond when the throttle is whacked to one half of remaining throttle in any gear (yes, even 5th) from idle RPM.  This will still actually be over rich rather than optimum idle mixture for idle.  This is because raising the slides loses suction in the carb throat (the suction is what draws in the fuel) while simultaneously making more air available.  The lean mixture leads to throttle stumble.  Honda's (or kehin's) cure was to make the idle mix over rich, so more air doesn't overwhelm the mixture and take it out of combustion range.  Later carbs (PD) used an accelerator pump to squirt extra fuel at throttle twist.  But, with out that, the idle needs to be over rich.  It is a balance between good throttle advance and keeping the plugs from building soot at idle.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scottly

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2014, 08:18:58 PM »
Alright guys,

I just put the K&N pods and took it for a little test drive.

It feels much better than before. It drags less when accelerating and it also idles better.

I can't help but think the carbs were already jetted for pods by the previous owner.

Here are a couple pictures.



Hey Zak, ride the bike around for awhile and get to know her before jumping into anything.  ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline zstoldt

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Re: To pod or not to pod!
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2014, 09:34:20 PM »

Hey Zak, ride the bike around for awhile and get to know her before jumping into anything.  ;)

This seems like good advice. I definitely want to learn the technical intricacies of tuning my carbs, but I'm getting a lot of information just by riding the bike around and getting to know it.

Thanks!
-Zak