Topic: Where's my 5th gear? SOLVED!!!

[flybox1]

I'll have to check that tomorrow.  Am I looking to see if it lands in a false neutral?
I only shifted back into 4th with my clutch....

[scottly]

If the only difference between 5th gear working or not working is whether or not you pull the clutch in, I would suspect the counter-shaft is shifting laterally due to pressure on the clutch lifter, pushing the shaft to the left? (assuming the neutral switch is properly seated  ) 

[flybox1]

Yes.  My neutral switch is properly seated.
Trying to picture how the countershaft can shift left, or any direction for that matter, with those bearing retainer half-circle things in...

[scottly]

Yeah, it's a frustrating mystery. If you can make the problem come and go depending on use of the clutch would be a clue.

[flybox1]

What might be the best way to check for lateral countershaft movement? 
I have no issues pulling my clutch components if needed.

[scottly]

Pull off the clutch cover and see if the clutch basket moves back and forth?

[HondaMan]

If the only difference between 5th gear working or not working is whether or not you pull the clutch in, I would suspect the counter-shaft is shifting laterally due to pressure on the clutch lifter, pushing the shaft to the left? (assuming the neutral switch is properly seated  ) 

Scottly: do you mean the Mainshaft? The countershaft is the one in the back of the engine.

If the lockwasher/snapring (whichever yours has) is not installed under the clutch hub just right, the mainshaft can slip laterally (left-right) with the clutch lifter pressing on it. This would push 5th gear away from 4th by the slip. something I have seen too many times in the earlier engines is/was: the cup washer was installed the wrong way out (or missing altogether!), which lets the mainshaft move when the clutch lifter pushes on it. This can make 5th move away from 4th by that much.

[PeWe]

If the only difference between 5th gear working or not working is whether or not you pull the clutch in, I would suspect the counter-shaft is shifting laterally due to pressure on the clutch lifter, pushing the shaft to the left? (assuming the neutral switch is properly seated  ) 

Scottly: do you mean the Mainshaft? The countershaft is the one in the back of the engine.

If the lockwasher/snapring (whichever yours has) is not installed under the clutch hub just right, the mainshaft can slip laterally (left-right) with the clutch lifter pressing on it. This would push 5th gear away from 4th by the slip. something I have seen to many times in the earlier engines is/was: the cup washer was installed the wrong way out (or missing altogether!), which lets the mainshaft move when the clutch lifter pushes on it. This can make 5th move away from 4th by that much.

This can be checked and fixed without pulling the engine right?
Just remove the clutch with bike on sidestand, oil will stay in engine as well.

[scottly]

If the only difference between 5th gear working or not working is whether or not you pull the clutch in, I would suspect the counter-shaft is shifting laterally due to pressure on the clutch lifter, pushing the shaft to the left? (assuming the neutral switch is properly seated  ) 

Scottly: do you mean the Mainshaft? The countershaft is the one in the back of the engine.

If the lockwasher/snapring (whichever yours has) is not installed under the clutch hub just right, the mainshaft can slip laterally (left-right) with the clutch lifter pressing on it. This would push 5th gear away from 4th by the slip. something I have seen to many times in the earlier engines is/was: the cup washer was installed the wrong way out (or missing altogether!), which lets the mainshaft move when the clutch lifter pushes on it. This can make 5th move away from 4th by that much.

Hi Mark, yes, I meant mainshaft. I checked my K7 motor today, which already had the clutch removed, and couldn't move the mainshaft laterally any discernible amount? I tried in every gear plus neutral... 

[flybox1]

Clutch coming apart 

[HondaMan]

If the only difference between 5th gear working or not working is whether or not you pull the clutch in, I would suspect the counter-shaft is shifting laterally due to pressure on the clutch lifter, pushing the shaft to the left? (assuming the neutral switch is properly seated  ) 

Scottly: do you mean the Mainshaft? The countershaft is the one in the back of the engine.

If the lockwasher/snapring (whichever yours has) is not installed under the clutch hub just right, the mainshaft can slip laterally (left-right) with the clutch lifter pressing on it. This would push 5th gear away from 4th by the slip. something I have seen to many times in the earlier engines is/was: the cup washer was installed the wrong way out (or missing altogether!), which lets the mainshaft move when the clutch lifter pushes on it. This can make 5th move away from 4th by that much.

Hi Mark, yes, I meant mainshaft. I checked my K7 motor today, which already had the clutch removed, and couldn't move the mainshaft laterally any discernible amount? I tried in every gear plus neutral... 

That sounds normal: the bearings usually don't let it move much. The shift troubles can come into play if the clutch basket is not held snugly against the end of that mainshaft. Part of the clutch movement for disengage also then moves the basket away instead of opening it. Then the gears bind on the shaft and won't shift, in those situations.

A couple of years ago I tried using some bearings that had grooves cut in the right position, but they were too wide by about 20%-30% (eyeball estimate). The result was that the 5th gear would often not engage because the far-side bearing would let the shaft slip away, and the 5th gear would follow it away from the 4th.

[flybox1]

Does the lifter plate and all discs need to come out to check for this?
I've got no lateral play in N with the plates in and lifter plate on.

[scottly]

I only checked with the clutch assembly removed entirely, and found no play in the main shaft. With the plates in and the lifter plate and springs installed, the clutch would be locking the main shaft to the clutch basket, so it might not be a good test? Perhaps it's not really clutch related??

[flybox1]

My basket is solid.  No movement at all.
I dug a little further...
Is this spline washer meant to have this much play?  I don't remember...

[scottly]

Yeah, the slop in the spline washer looks normal, from what I recall..

[flybox1]

Re-reading some of hondamans post above, is there anything besides the lock washer and nut to secure the clutch basket to the mainshaft?

[scottly]

Rob, have you tried fitting an OEM neutral switch clamp yet? That is the only thing that stands out to me over this entire thread..

[flybox1]

Lol... You didn't like my modified washer?
I'll see what I can do about it....

[flybox1]

These three items secure the basket to the mainshaft.
This thrust washer is not flat.
Is there a preferred direction for install?

[CB750F2]

The dome of the washer faces outwards - the surface that you can see in your photo faces the nut and lock washer. Pat

[flybox1]

The dome of the washer faces outwards - the surface that you can see in your photo faces the nut and lock washer. Pat

Excellent.   Thank you.
I did have this inverted.  Concave side facing the retaining washer and nut...if it makes any difference.
It is installed now, convex side facing outward.

[HondaMan]

The dome of the washer faces outwards - the surface that you can see in your photo faces the nut and lock washer. Pat

Excellent.   Thank you.
I did have this inverted.  Concave side facing the retaining washer and nut...if it makes any difference.
It is installed now, convex side facing outward.

It does matter: often the mainshaft will bind if this is inverted. The cup actually flexes inward a bit as the load on the mainshaft increases beyond the 'squish' rate of this cup, either with speed or power. This tiny bit of flex allows the mainshaft to shorten its overall length under power as it twists. This is a way of keeping the shaft from stretching past its critical flex strength ('yield strength'), where it would otherwise force it to stretch for good (as twist), or crack (usually along a spline edge).

[flybox1]

The dome of the washer faces outwards - the surface that you can see in your photo faces the nut and lock washer. Pat

Excellent.   Thank you.
I did have this inverted.  Concave side facing the retaining washer and nut...if it makes any difference.
It is installed now, convex side facing outward.

It does matter: often the mainshaft will bind if this is inverted. The cup actually flexes inward a bit as the load on the mainshaft increases beyond the 'squish' rate of this cup, either with speed or power. This tiny bit of flex allows the mainshaft to shorten its overall length under power as it twists. This is a way of keeping the shaft from stretching past its critical flex strength ('yield strength'), where it would otherwise force it to stretch for good (as twist), or crack (usually along a spline edge).

HondaMan... thank you for the detail.  I'm anxious to ride this again tomorrow.

[flybox1]

A concave thrust washer(pictured above) holding the clutch basket must have been it.   I had the day off and went out for 100mi.  If I feather the clutch during my upshift to 5th, I can get it every time, and then it's off to the races.  If I grab full clutch, it won't engage. Bike runs fantastic otherwise.
I'm happy with it as-is.  Thanks everyone for the input over the past year.

fly out...

[SKTP]

Great news!