Topic: Sam Green Recovery Fund

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Watch this in slow mo! Sure looks like he hit something wet/slick or both! I'm beginning to rule out mechanical failure or rider error at this point! Damn it. Watching you can see the shimmer on track, he hits it and all hell broke loose. Sam, you did a fine job of controlling an out of control motorcycle. I think the Man Cup/Va track people need to see this!.........
Sam
A big thanks to Tiny for the slow mo.

[jweeks]

When I saw the bike the next morning, one of the first things that I checked for was any oil sheen on the sidewall of the rear tire. I couldn't find any. I also checked for a flat spot on the tread. Didn't find one. Drove the bike, launched the bike without any problem. I'm still lost on this one.

                                                             Jon Weeks

[70CB750]

#$%*, that looks ugly!

[trueblue]

He did a bloody good job of hanging onto it. I showed the video to my wife and her first comment was it looked like he hit ice on the track.

[johno]

Jon , I'm not lost on this one .........the track was swimming man, clerk of the course should have rode over it first for a look before racing commenced, If they are responsible they should chip in for Sam,
 Racing is dangerous enough without people putting terminal surprises half way down the track, if you dont know how to put that #$%* on properly .........dont put it on at all.
thats my two bobs worth.

[mick7504]

Here is 26 screen shots over 5 seconds of footage.

[LArzFroMArz]

9:00 am Thursday 6/26

Sam is having a decent morning and he is joking with the nurses when he can but still just a bit groggy, probably now from the pain meds as I'd expect his ribs to give the most discomfort/pain. They asked him if he knew Bill and Larry and he said he did. He is still having some expected confusion. I've inquired about when they might get him on his feet and it look a few days yet, I think they want to get him eating solid foods first. So still "on track" and a little better than yesterday.


Larry

[tweakin]

Great news!  Thanks for the update Larry

9:00 am Thursday 6/26

Sam is having a decent morning and he is joking with the nurses when he can but still just a bit groggy, probably now from the pain meds as I'd expect his ribs to give the most discomfort/pain. They asked him if he knew Bill and Larry and he said he did. He is still having some expected confusion. I've inquired about when they might get him on his feet and it look a few days yet, I think they want to get him eating solid foods first. So still "on track" and a little better than yesterday.


Larry

[mcpuffett]

Good to hear he's a bit better  , he's a northern lad so he'll be tough as old boots  cheers Mick.

[MRieck]

Guys...I wouldn't be quick to blame the track. The track officials checked the track after the accident (Keith Byers and I were watching....Bill and Larry were not there) and there were no problems indicated. We could not see any problems such a loss of traction, excessive traction, bumps or shiny round metallic objects in the sky etc.
 Sam was sitting up, off the gas (or the engine was not running) and slowing down so hitting oil etc under full power and fish tailing is off the table. Heat waves off hot asphalt make any road look slippery. People better ask why he sat up and was losing power as that started the chain of events.

[MRieck]

When I saw the bike the next morning, one of the first things that I checked for was any oil sheen on the sidewall of the rear tire. I couldn't find any. I also checked for a flat spot on the tread. Didn't find one. Drove the bike, launched the bike without any problem. I'm still lost on this one.

                                                             Jon Weeks

You drove the bike Jon??

[bwaller]

 So many things happen that can't be explained. In the vid Sam is obviously upright & off the throttle. With a clutch pulled and no brakes the bike would straighten up and coast at least until the next rider input, I dont' know the reaction with autos. If it was oil the front wheel would be covered as well and very hard to control. In this case though the back end is trying to pass the front and makes me think the rear is locked or locking. I expect the track is somewhat slick too.

I've crashed in oil & it is like riding on ice, the front went first, no way to control it. Another time I nearly crashed when the oil cooler split and sprayed back & soaked the left side of the rear tire. In the first left corner the rear end washed as soon as I bent it into that turn.

This is obviously one other blokes first thoughts. The main thing is to give Sam all our support and see him well again.

[MRieck]

So many things happen that can't be explained. In the vid Sam is obviously upright & off the throttle. With a clutch pulled and no brakes the bike would straighten up and coast at least until the next rider input, I dont' know the reaction with autos. If it was oil the front wheel would be covered as well and very hard to control. In this case though the back end is trying to pass the front and makes me think the rear is locked or locking. I expect the track is somewhat slick too.

I've crashed in oil & it is like riding on ice, the front went first, no way to control it. Another time I nearly crashed when the oil cooler split and sprayed back & soaked the left side of the rear tire. In the first left corner the rear end washed as soon as I bent it into that turn.

This is obviously one other blokes first thoughts. The main thing is to give Sam all our support and see him well again.

Both excellent good points Brent. Consider where the bike is on the track I would assume Sam was shifting into high (meaning revs were probably around 9,000 or so). I do not think the engine will free wheel at that RPM

[bwaller]

If it was a track surface (or an oil ) issue only I expect the rear end would have continued on its way to the left & not hooked up again. Sam counter steered and the rear came back around right. If it was greasy the front would have likely been lost with that first input too. It seems to me like something was slowing that rear wheel quickly.

[Jim F]

If the engine stopped for whatever reason at that speed
would the convertor still be locked up? If so then does this engine have
enough compression to lock up the rear end with the converter locked.

[edwardmorris]

@Jonathan, sorry for the delay, just sent $100 to samgreenrecoveryfund@outlook.com

Get well soon Sam.

[jweeks]

Yes, Bill and I drove the bike in the pits. I was in the back corner for the two launches that I tried. Never got over 15 mph. Larry was on the scooter when I road around to check on how the bike was tracking. Yes, I was in full safety gear. With the converter, the bike free wheels when you come off of the gas.(including shutting off the motor) The other item that people are missing is that Sam's timeslip showed 45 mph at the 1/8th mile mark. Normal is 92. He got off of the gas when he sat up, which is why he was going fairly slow at the 1/8th mile mark. Since he had about 1500 more feet to travel down the track to get to a turn around point, he was probably cruising down the track until he hit whatever that caused the chassis upset. There was a lot of tire pressure on that bike per Sam's request. That helped reduce the contact patches. I've taught Bill and Sam to never use the rear brake on that bike after you get moving. It instantly locks up the rear wheel. You slow with the front brake only. I still don't have answers for this.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Thank god he wasn't running flat out when he lost control.  He did a heck of a job staying on it for as long as he did. 

[scottly]

Sam counter steered and the rear came back around right. If it was greasy the front would have likely been lost with that first input too.

I noticed that, too. Also, just before the rear swung to the left, it looks like it drifted slightly to the right?

[MRieck]

Yes, Bill and I drove the bike in the pits. I was in the back corner for the two launches that I tried. Never got over 15 mph. Larry was on the scooter when I road around to check on how the bike was tracking. Yes, I was in full safety gear. With the converter, the bike free wheels when you come off of the gas.(including shutting off the motor) The other item that people are missing is that Sam's timeslip showed 45 mph at the 1/8th mile mark. Normal is 92. He got off of the gas when he sat up, which is why he was going fairly slow at the 1/8th mile mark. Since he had about 1500 more feet to travel down the track to get to a turn around point, he was probably cruising down the track until he hit whatever that caused the chassis upset. There was a lot of tire pressure on that bike per Sam's request. That helped reduce the contact patches. I've taught Bill and Sam to never use the rear brake on that bike after you get moving. It instantly locks up the rear wheel. You slow with the front brake only. I still don't have answers for this.

I know Bill rode the bike. I am well aware of the low speed at the 1/8th as I was speaking with the fella that runs the track as well as the fella that runs the Man Cup. They told me that and some other details.
 You say he got off the gas Jon...you are assuming the engine was running (and that is a big assumption) because it very well might not have been the case. You say the convertor freewheels but you can jump automatic cars if you get the RPM's over stall speed. Freewheeling is different a sudden and complete disconnect similar to pulling in a clutch at high RPM. Plus even it is freewheeling I'd say engine braking comes into play. I never saw a brake light on and I'm pretty sure the rear brake is connected to it. And why does the rear brake lock up instantly? It sure didn't when I tried it
 I am telling you...there was nothing on the track...period. I was there with Keith while Sam was laying on the track...you were still a day away. I'd forget about that theory. Even if there was something (oil, H20) it would be a problem if he was under power. How on Gods green earth do you fishtail when coasting (akin to having a clutch pulled in) unless something is causing drag on the rear tire. I have coasted straight through just about every material you can find on a road and never experienced a rear tire suddenly kicking out.
 That high air pressure in the tire and struts certainly didn't help when the back end started moving around as it causes the tire to bounce like a basketball and with no suspension all that energy has to go somewhere (like into the frame). Plus that tire is about 100 years old and hard as a rock.....not good.
 I am going to guess that Sam was starting to go to the right to rest the bike against the wall. There was no way that bike was going to coast to the end of the track.

[POPS 911]

SGMP is a all concrete track , just sprayed, shining like GLASS........ Very smooth track , laser ground.

Norwalk Raceway Park is concrete to the 330' then Black topped to the end. Why does NHRA hold a major OHIO event at a IHRA TRACK = TRACTION

Which material is the most porous ? To soak in traction compound.....  Automatic had rear special brakes with front left hand brake lever ? RIGHT                  Same as a BUSA WITH A SLIDER , told my Boyz it not a clutch anymore = do-not touch while your on the 1320' after holding bike at the starting line.

[Jonathan Green]

Yes, Bill and I drove the bike in the pits. I was in the back corner for the two launches that I tried. Never got over 15 mph. Larry was on the scooter when I road around to check on how the bike was tracking. Yes, I was in full safety gear. With the converter, the bike free wheels when you come off of the gas.(including shutting off the motor) The other item that people are missing is that Sam's timeslip showed 45 mph at the 1/8th mile mark. Normal is 92. He got off of the gas when he sat up, which is why he was going fairly slow at the 1/8th mile mark. Since he had about 1500 more feet to travel down the track to get to a turn around point, he was probably cruising down the track until he hit whatever that caused the chassis upset. There was a lot of tire pressure on that bike per Sam's request. That helped reduce the contact patches. I've taught Bill and Sam to never use the rear brake on that bike after you get moving. It instantly locks up the rear wheel. You slow with the front brake only. I still don't have answers for this.

I know Bill rode the bike. I am well aware of the low speed at the 1/8th as I was speaking with the fella that runs the track as well as the fella that runs the Man Cup. They told me that and some other details.
 You say he got off the gas Jon...you are assuming the engine was running (and that is a big assumption) because it very well might not have been the case. You say the convertor freewheels but you can jump automatic cars if you get the RPM's over stall speed. Freewheeling is different a sudden and complete disconnect similar to pulling in a clutch at high RPM. Plus even it is freewheeling I'd say engine braking comes into play. I never saw a brake light on and I'm pretty sure the rear brake is connected to it. And why does the rear brake lock up instantly? It sure didn't when I tried it
 I am telling you...there was nothing on the track...period. I was there with Keith while Sam was laying on the track...you were still a day away. I'd forget about that theory. Even if there was something (oil, H20) it would be a problem if he was under power. How on Gods green earth do you fishtail when coasting (akin to having a clutch pulled in) unless something is causing drag on the rear tire. I have coasted straight through just about every material you can find on a road and never experienced a rear tire suddenly kicking out.
 That high air pressure in the tire and struts certainly didn't help when the back end started moving around as it causes the tire to bounce like a basketball and with no suspension all that energy has to go somewhere (like into the frame). Plus that tire is about 100 years old and hard as a rock.....not good.
 I am going to guess that Sam was starting to go to the right to rest the bike against the wall. There was no way that bike was going to coast to the end of the track.

Hi Mike, how are you, well i hope?

If you don't mind me asking, what are your opinions on what happened as you seem to dismiss anybody else opinion?

Regards,

Jonathan.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Everybody slow down and take a deep breath! We need to deal with the FACTS as we know them! I just spoke with Sam. He now knows he's still in Va. He asked me what happened? I let him know he crashed in first round of practice Friday. He remembers but not yet everything. When he sees the tape, might prod him to remember. For the time being, we know he sat up? Why? Was the start of it all. Did not ever hit the rear brake as it has a light like Mike stated. I agree on starting, we used to push old automatics to crank, just got to get them rolling pretty quick! Line lock is not on bike, rule it out. Rear brake I've used w/out locking rear wheel, it works progressively to pressure applied at lever. If I was going to guess a brake it would be the front one. Engine problem I suspect more than rear brake. Still goes back to Sam, why did you sit up and abort the run? Miss a shift, yes runs done, but he would just put it in gear and finish, albeit much slower. Going to investigate more, we still don't know what caused it, smaller contact patch didn't help, but not what caused it. I think they said engine was still running when they got there. We still got more questions than answers. Please refrain from personal attacks...we are TEAM Sam Green! Best news we talked and he's getting better!
Thanks, Bill

[dusterdude]

I agree with bill,this doesnt need to turn into a pissing contest.we all want to try and figure out what happened


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[larry hayes]

bill give me an address to send a check to and who to make it to and I will have one on the way I am old fashion don't mess with pay pal