Author Topic: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//  (Read 9910 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2014, 10:40:11 PM »
Whoa, whoa. I did not edit my original statement. You should NOT ride in the center of the lane most of the time. That's always been said. What I referenced shows it too. If you disagree, that's fine. But don't tell me I'm wrong or that I don't know #$%*.

I disagree with your contention that riding in the center of the lane is safest most of the time. Maybe I ought to strap on my Go-Pro and show what it looks like to ride in the center of the lane and be blocked by vehicles in front of you and not being able to be seen at all by oncoming traffic. Sorry, that's my advice. You can take it, or leave it. Just like the OP can. Let him learn from his instructors. It would be great for him to take the class and then report back and tell us who's right. I already know from the 8 professionals that I ride with who have been on the road as long as anyone else.

Btw, 3 posters above me have said what I've been saying in just a different way. Telling someone to ride in the center of the lane most of the time WILL end in tears. I hope that's not what you're saying.

I already said the overarching principle is ride where you are most seen and can be seen. That's the truth. On most common rural roads that I travel to work on (which is like the vast majority of roads that I've been on) I am SEEN and can SEE the MOST on the left portion of the lane.

Quote
That's great and all, but I actually know the correct answer

Not from experience but because "someone told you", Thats arrogant as hell and an attitude that will get you killed, you're far too young and inexperienced to mouth off like that, we have a saying for that here, its called "flirting with fate"...

You seem to have a knack for arguing with people with far more experience and knowledge than you mate, and I doubt anyone else here with 2 years limited experience would proclaim as loudly as you whats right and wrong. {the fact you can't work that out amazes me and most others here} You have an accredited rider trainer telling you {as well as others}, with years of actual experience riding and training and you still don't listen. A pattern emerged with your arrogant approach a while back, nothing has changed...I referred to you as "inexperienced" and less than 2 years riding says you are, why is that condescending, I thought it was pointing out the obvious..? {because you don't want to hear it obviously} Riding in the center of the lane is the safest place to ride most of the time, if your riding so close that on coming traffic can't see you then you are already doing something wrong.. Most of your assumptions are plain bullsh1t, no one really gives a damn what you "think" as you haven't been riding long enough to give anyone solid advice, when you've graduated from a few hundred near misses and the inexplicable idiot running you down or off the road {and your skills save your butt} you may start to get it and maybe share your "real life" experiences.  Anyone can read from a pamphlet, the real world is far different, most of us have the scars to prove it....
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fendersrule

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2014, 11:08:10 PM »
Wait, so I should come back and post after I've had a "few hundred" near misses? Jeeze, that should really tell me why I should be riding in the center of the lane…I need more near misses…hundreds of them! That will show me!

Ever question why you've had "hundreds" of near misses?

It's not just experience. It's experience + training, period. Reading what you just said is absolutely funny. Do you realize you could be doing things that are just plain WRONG so many times that you believe that they are right?

Yes, I've been riding for only a little over two years, every day. That's it. I'm not "making" up rules by my experience. I'm making up rules from my 50+ hours of gruesome motorcycle training with the best, and it wasn't cheap, either. I do my homework, and I learn hard.  15,000 miles and zero near misses in two years of riding. I guess I'm doing it all wrong so far?

I need more near misses is what I need. Good job on scaring the OP. OP, take the training and you will be fine. Safety is first. Or ride on the road without training until you get 200 near misses under your belt before you can have an opinion.

Sorry fellas, I can give tips any damned time I feel like it. I'm done with responding to this thread. Please do some research before you shoot the messenger. You can have your opinion, and I can have mine.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 11:10:30 PM by fendersrule »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2014, 02:04:04 AM »
Wait, so I should come back and post after I've had a "few hundred" near misses? Jeeze, that should really tell me why I should be riding in the center of the lane…I need more near misses…hundreds of them! That will show me!

Ever question why you've had "hundreds" of near misses?

It's not just experience. It's experience + training, period. Reading what you just said is absolutely funny. Do you realize you could be doing things that are just plain WRONG so many times that you believe that they are right?


 I've had hundreds of near misses because of the time i've spent in the saddle, I bought my first K1/750 when i was 16 from Phil Beaumont motorcycles in Brisbane city, I worked across the road from them, my work in motorcycle shops, my job as a motorcycle courier in Sydney, Riding motocross bikes,  track days and 100's of days at the track pit crewing for my mates that race, the fact that for the first 21 years on the road a motorcycle was my primary form of transport ,and I lived and worked in major cities here at the time, not to mention all the wheel stands, power slides, mad runs up Mount Tamborine in QLD and Maquarie pass and National park in NSW, or the countless days fish tailing our 750's in my mates dads trucking yard driveway when we were young and fearless, we did things on 750/4 Honda's that would make you cringe, and i put a lot of bigger more powerful bikes to shame in the twisties  with my early Honda's , thats how i know my old Honda's, apart from the fact i've owned around 20 odd 750/4's as well as another 20 odd bikes up to 1100cc,  but you see,  none of that matters to people like you, you "think" your always right,  nothing anyone else says makes any difference, you are a try hard, you can't stand being corrected, so you make sh1t up as you go and dispute people with far greater knowledge than your own. You may think what i wrote was funny, but its true, like it or lump it. Your bizarre premise that you are the only one doing things right here is the fcuking joke of the century, do you even read what you post, its absolute rubbish and anyone thats been around bikes for any length of time knows that... Anyway I Didn't read any further than the quote because you are an fool, the stupidity and lack of reasoning in your simple retorts bleeds lack of time and experience in the saddle. Training, training, training, woopee, Training is good for beginners {and some others} but its not training thats rides your bike mate,  training is in a neutral environment and its not meant to give anyone a false sense of security, Quite the opposite, You remind me of a girl in my music class when i was doing my music diploma, she was young and had been driving for 3 years, she was telling anyone that would listen that she was a great driver, I disputed that and she got all p1ssed off {just like you, couldn't be told anything}, she wrote her car off and nearly killed 2 other students that were in her car , she'd done her driver training courses as we do them at school here,  she lost control of her car and didn't know what to do, she soon realized that she was no where near a being a good driver and time is the only thing that makes you better, not courses, not bullsh1t stories, time and experience, so come back when you have something credible to add... Just for you , ANYONE thats done 100's of 1000's of miles in the saddle will have 100's of near misses, especially in the city, if i have to explain why to you then you really have no idea, you come across as being quite naive and ignorant which is kinda funny for a know it all...... :o
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Offline petercb750

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2014, 02:36:56 AM »
Very true, training is generally a neutral environment, it teaches some bike control skills, gives examples of what to do and what not to do, braking skills etc to novices or those returning to biking after a long break. But nothing teaches like doing.
Like retro, I've had lots of experiences and near misses in 43 years of riding on our roads, skills sometimes have saved my butt, sometimes luck....mostly the latter probably.
When the time comes for fenders,  and he's picking up bits of his bike off the road (and I certainly do not wish that upon him) I hope he re-visits this thread and realises what a dick he's made of himself and that he's not perfect and such an awesome rider because he rides with people who apparently are.
Sorry to the OP for a bit of a thread hijack, but some people really cause sh1t with the dribble they produce, but hang in there and take from this thread some of the positive and productive comments and suggestions.

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Offline trueblue

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2014, 02:54:26 AM »
It is really impressive the amount of #$%* that fenders can dribble.  I've never seen a more impressive amount of dribble in one thread... except for the 450 thread that is ;D

There seems to be a common denominator there.   ::) ::)
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2014, 03:29:28 AM »
Quote

the 450 thread



Now, that was impressive!
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Offline calj737

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2014, 03:42:39 AM »
Amen! His "brown bike" rears it's head again....

I will say this about rider training, even the "advanced" stuff: generally speaking, the skills development is not only done in a neutral environment, it is also done at very slow speeds. Unless of course you're doing advanced track skills where forcing one to develop riding skills at much higher speeds. But then again, these are provided in a neutral environment.

Regrettably, for all his blustering and bs, he is doing the right thing about learning. He just can't work out the "whys" and "wherefores" of what he's been told, and when to apply it.

As for his formula of training+15,000 miles=wisdom, well, if that were true then he really ought to write a book.or become one of those "professional riders" he cited a page or two back.
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Offline mick7504

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2014, 03:46:14 AM »
Quote

the 450 thread

[/quote


Now, that was impressive!
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Offline petercb750

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2014, 03:56:25 AM »
Oh oh.... ;D
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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2014, 04:54:30 AM »
i can't see any problem learning to go 15 miles an hour around witches hats in a car park. you have to learn somewhere. ::)

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2014, 04:55:48 AM »
Hmm... ???...to get back on topic:

A while back there was some description of various lane positions when riding on a two-lane right-side of the road.  Mostly the information was agreeable to me.  However :-\, there was something not quite to my liking (and experience as a M/C instructor for over 10 years :-[) in the description of making right-hand turns.  Specifically it was described that one should move over to the right side of the lane when making a right turn, so as to block the curb lane.  A better strategy is to approach the stop in the left tire track and angle the bike across the lane at the stop.  This should place the front tire in the right tire track (blocking the curb), keeping the rear tire in the left tire track (making the bike more visible from behind with a larger profile showing). AND making the sharp right turn from a stop easier to accomplish.  This maneuver should make it easier to stay in the correct lane since from a stop you have already turned the bike probably half-way. 

Sad story, but the other year a new rider was killed about 3 miles from where I live when she pulled out onto a highway making a right turn from a stop, and went wide directly into the path of an oncoming vehicle. :'(

Offline demon78

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2014, 05:58:05 AM »
Ok I think that you get the idea, get your safety courses, read, think, practice, think, think, and yes there will by contradictory information out there, so think, practice, this is an individual sport so you think about what works for you, I read some of the more important treatises on bikes and tried what I could and thought about it tried and modified my practice on what worked for me, it wasn't until I drove a bike on icy roads that I really understood what balance, body position, steering, and sensory input meant and once I understood, I could stop and analyze what was going on and correct for bad driving habits, misinformation, distractions and so on, of course I'm weird like that and not all people are the same so the main thing is think and practice.
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Offline calj737

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2014, 06:03:45 AM »
i can't see any problem learning to go 15 miles an hour around witches hats in a car park. you have to learn somewhere. ::)

You are 100% correct. There is nothing wrong at all, and in my opinion, it is the best "learning" environment. Skills should always be learned in control environs, at very controlled speeds. That promotes confidence and comfort.

I think the point was that at slow speeds only, these skills don't translate to actual road situations, only actual experience does. I'll never knock riding courses, even repeating the basic course repeatedly. I encourage it, and do myself repeat the course often. But I also take more advanced courses to keep my skills up, and to continually develop a comfort for higher speed maneuvers. It also is "fun" to be able to go fast in a controlled environ and practice stuff you wouldn't normally do on a roadway but under the most dire of conditions.

Oddly, and perhaps Peter and other Instructors might agree, most riders don't practice the true, slow speed, maneuvers enough. Some none cited a video series by a former California Motor Cop who specializes in these practices. It's pretty impressive stuff, and I've seen it myself. But I wouldn't limit my myself to only viewing it: I'd take the courses and practice under watchful eyes to develop the skill properly.

It appears someone prefers to refute these tactics with an over-ruling doctrine about what is "correct", despite what is "learned" as what is best practice.
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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2014, 06:25:17 AM »
...short delay while I made some popcorn...

Other posts have mentioned about riding in the center of the lane being the "best position".  Generally this is not the case.  In fact some people will never ride there as it doesn't provide any rear blocking of the lane and debris tends to accumulate in this location.  As well, many roads develop quite a hump in the middle of the lane and riding on top of that can be a challenge with more irregularities.  Sometimes, the centre is appropriate if on a multi-lane highway with traffic flowing on each side...and there are other instances when it momentarily may be appropriate.

Speaking of multi-lane highways, generally we avoid the centre lanes for prolonged travel.  The curb lane should be ridden in the tire track that gives the best blocking and visibility - the left tire track on rods where we ride and drive on the right side of the road.  On multi-lane highways, the curb lane is the desired lane to ride in.  However, there are times when in the passing or extreme left lane is ridden, and then for visibility and for blocking, you should ride in the right tire track.  "Blocking" BTW means that we try to prevent lane sharing by other vehicles - it also gives us better visibility to see and be seen, as well as giving us room to move/swerve while staying in our lane and on the road if someone cuts us off.

Another thing mentioned was about approaching large vehicles coming in the opposite direction on a two-lane road.  A good practice is to swing out into the right tire track (from the normally traveled left).  This is done to make us more visible to following traffic behind the large vehicle and also to allow us to see sooner any vehicle that might be tucked-up close behind the large vehicle and about to pass.  On dirty or wet roads, this maneuver also gets us out of the stream of debris that might be thrown up by the wake from the large vehicle.  The maneuver isn't to avoid the wind blast from the wake nor fear of being sucked-in by it.

Offline MikeKato

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2014, 06:54:49 AM »
My biggest fear is the "courtious drivers" that leave open a gap in traffic at stop lights so oncoming traffic can cross.  If I'm in the right lane of a 3 lane highway, I want those 2 lanes to my left blocking traffic,not inviting traffic to pull out and help themselves to my lane. In my opinion any accident that happens when people do that is directly the falt of those "nice people" that figured they could design a better traffic flow then those that get paid to do it.

P.s. not to get into the argument, but anyone that has rode 15,000 miles without a close call is simply not paying attention.

Best of Luck!
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Offline Vicman

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2014, 08:49:48 AM »
...short delay while I made some popcorn...

Other posts have mentioned about riding in the center of the lane being the "best position".  Generally this is not the case.  In fact some people will never ride there as it doesn't provide any rear blocking of the lane and debris tends to accumulate in this location.  As well, many roads develop quite a hump in the middle of the lane and riding on top of that can be a challenge with more irregularities.  Sometimes, the centre is appropriate if on a multi-lane highway with traffic flowing on each side...and there are other instances when it momentarily may be appropriate.

Speaking of multi-lane highways, generally we avoid the centre lanes for prolonged travel.  The curb lane should be ridden in the tire track that gives the best blocking and visibility - the left tire track on rods where we ride and drive on the right side of the road.  On multi-lane highways, the curb lane is the desired lane to ride in.  However, there are times when in the passing or extreme left lane is ridden, and then for visibility and for blocking, you should ride in the right tire track.  "Blocking" BTW means that we try to prevent lane sharing by other vehicles - it also gives us better visibility to see and be seen, as well as giving us room to move/swerve while staying in our lane and on the road if someone cuts us off.

Another thing mentioned was about approaching large vehicles coming in the opposite direction on a two-lane road.  A good practice is to swing out into the right tire track (from the normally traveled left).  This is done to make us more visible to following traffic behind the large vehicle and also to allow us to see sooner any vehicle that might be tucked-up close behind the large vehicle and about to pass.  On dirty or wet roads, this maneuver also gets us out of the stream of debris that might be thrown up by the wake from the large vehicle.  The maneuver isn't to avoid the wind blast from the wake nor fear of being sucked-in by it.

Excellent post. ;) ::)
Down here in the deep south the "mud strip" as I call the center of the lane actually foams up like soap in a light rain and is insanely slick. Cars last longer down here too and tend to have leaky engines dropping oil etc there.
I also liked the comments about how important balance is when riding on icy roads, I too rode though a winter in the Detroit area in my younger days. That dynamic changes a lot of how you ride.

I have developed my style to a very offensive type of driving. I realize I am usually invisible and ride like no one can see me but when I am pinned in on multi lanes and other traffic situations I position myself (in whatever portion of the lane) in such a way as I make people around me a little on edge, headlight shining in mirror, down shift so the bike is louder, dirty look, etc, whatever to make people around me look at what is making the disturbance.

Tap that brake light a few times to make it flash and indicate you are stopping/slowing down for the 4 wheelers behind you is another helpful tip. 8)

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2014, 09:36:01 AM »
Fresh rain on cobble stones schooled me in Prague when I was young, after a while you learn to drive with your butt in situation like that.

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2014, 02:56:45 PM »

Quote

the 450 thread



Now, that was impressive!


Evenin Mick! And Dog [sorry, forgot his name]
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 02:58:31 PM by Stev-o »
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Offline dave500

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2014, 12:11:37 AM »
gday Charlie!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2014, 12:40:10 AM »

Quote

the 450 thread



Now, that was impressive!


Evenin Mick! And Dog [sorry, forgot his name]

Gday Steve.... ;D
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2014, 12:42:18 AM »
...short delay while I made some popcorn...

Other posts have mentioned about riding in the center of the lane being the "best position".  Generally this is not the case.  In fact some people will never ride there as it doesn't provide any rear blocking of the lane and debris tends to accumulate in this location.  As well, many roads develop quite a hump in the middle of the lane and riding on top of that can be a challenge with more irregularities.  Sometimes, the centre is appropriate if on a multi-lane highway with traffic flowing on each side...and there are other instances when it momentarily may be appropriate.

Speaking of multi-lane highways, generally we avoid the centre lanes for prolonged travel.  The curb lane should be ridden in the tire track that gives the best blocking and visibility - the left tire track on rods where we ride and drive on the right side of the road.  On multi-lane highways, the curb lane is the desired lane to ride in.  However, there are times when in the passing or extreme left lane is ridden, and then for visibility and for blocking, you should ride in the right tire track.  "Blocking" BTW means that we try to prevent lane sharing by other vehicles - it also gives us better visibility to see and be seen, as well as giving us room to move/swerve while staying in our lane and on the road if someone cuts us off.

Another thing mentioned was about approaching large vehicles coming in the opposite direction on a two-lane road.  A good practice is to swing out into the right tire track (from the normally traveled left).  This is done to make us more visible to following traffic behind the large vehicle and also to allow us to see sooner any vehicle that might be tucked-up close behind the large vehicle and about to pass.  On dirty or wet roads, this maneuver also gets us out of the stream of debris that might be thrown up by the wake from the large vehicle.  The maneuver isn't to avoid the wind blast from the wake nor fear of being sucked-in by it.

Thats all glaringly obvious and common sense, ride to the conditions, if you live in a country area and have poor roads then the middle of the lane is virtually useless, white lines and pedestrian crossings in the rain should be avoided as well. The biggest thing missed so far is to ride in peoples mirrors, if you can see them, they can see you, 90% of the time they aren't going to turn around to see whats there so stay visible...If you were referring to me in one of your other post just remember that we ride on the other side of the road here so what i was saying was that when turning make it obvious and don't take up all the lane, my pet hate is people that slow to almost a stop to turn in to a street from the middle of the road, i'm sure they think they are driving a bloody big truck.... :o
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 02:34:50 AM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline mark

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2014, 01:10:36 AM »
...,dont ride with people who turn every outing into a race...
A couple guys were playing that around here a while back. One slows down other speeds up and passes. One slowed for a turn the other didn't know the road and sped up and passed. Almost made the turn but faceplanted into a sturdy mailbox. Dunno if he did a donor card but the family pulled the plug anyway.



If that is the highway here, those dotted lines are deep ruts from my winter studs. Strip 1 and 3 are only a couple feet wide, and #2 is a bit wider than shown. I'm not riding in the ruts or down the center line, there's gravel and crap off to the right.

That pretty much leaves me stuck riding down the center of my lane - whether I like it or it's ideal or not.

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2014, 02:33:53 AM »
My biggest fear is the "courtious drivers" that leave open a gap in traffic at stop lights so oncoming traffic can cross.  If I'm in the right lane of a 3 lane highway, I want those 2 lanes to my left blocking traffic,not inviting traffic to pull out and help themselves to my lane. In my opinion any accident that happens when people do that is directly the falt of those "nice people" that figured they could design a better traffic flow then those that get paid to do it.

P.s. not to get into the argument, but anyone that has rode 15,000 miles without a close call is simply not paying attention.

Best of Luck!
Mike

Quote
15,000 miles and zero near misses in two years of riding. I guess I'm doing it all wrong so far?

Well  I reckon that's just more BS Mike, He joined here on the 9th November 2012, on the 11th of Nov, in his words, "i've bought my FIRST bike", so thats more like 19 months ago. It also gets "winterized", so that accounts for around 2-3 months {second winter} as the build was in the first winter,  and another 7 months  for that rebuild {finished 26 June 2013} If his claim was true he's done about 420 miles a week for every week since , thats 7 days a week, rain, hail or shine, and considering the weather you guys have had in the last couple of years {or less} I highly doubt that claim as well.........  :o

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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2014, 06:19:18 AM »


Quote
15,000 miles and zero near misses in two years of riding. I guess I'm doing it all wrong so far?

Anyone that has rode 15,000 miles without a close call is simply not paying attention.

Joined here on the 9th November 2012, on the 11th of Nov, in his words, "i've bought my FIRST bike", so thats more like 19 months ago. It also gets "winterized", so that accounts for around 2-3 months {second winter} as the build was in the first winter,  and another 7 months  for that rebuild {finished 26 June 2013} If his claim was true he's done about 420 miles a week for every week since , thats 7 days a week, rain, hail or shine, and considering the weather you guys have had in the last couple of years {or less} I highly doubt that claim as well.........  :o


Gonna have to agree with Mike and RR here. Way to do your homework by the way there RR!  8)

To cover 15,000 miles with ZERO near misses means you either have supernatural powers over people and conditions around you, or you spend most of your time on a closed course under controlled conditions. I can't cover 15,000 miles in my pickup truck without racking up some near misses, but I commute through a major metropolitan area daily (Orlando, FL). I've had probably half a dozen deer (or more) near my path within the last 5,000 miles on my bike, 2,500 of which were completed in just the last two weeks. Slowing down under those conditions can help mitigate the risk, but how to completely eliminate random factors such as the behavior of local wildlife solely through superior riding ability is something I must not have mastered quite yet...  ???

My concern is that you may eventually lull yourself into a false sense of security by what you perceive to be your superior riding skills. Nothing like a near miss to bring you back down to earth... both spiritually and sometimes physically!  :o  (my headlight fork ear remains disfigured to this day from a close encounter with a red light runner)

Riding attitude, focus, concentration, training, and experience can all combine to help us, as riders, minimize our exposure to risk. But to believe you are good enough to eliminate the danger completely? I can only strive to be that good...  ::)
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline calj737

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Re: Scare tactics//Statistics//New Rider//
« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2014, 07:29:11 AM »
Ever question why you've had "hundreds" of near misses?

Actually, Fenders, the reason they are "near misses" and not actual "accidents" is precisely the point. Experience, experience, experience. There is 0 substitute for actual riding conditions, actual decision making at speed when the "other" drivers and riders don't know the "playbook".

Again, I'm not discounting or discrediting training, but to consider yourself better informed on "how" it should be done compared to those who "have done" it, is just plain hubris. And as MMotors said, hubris and arrogance will get you killed.

Having said all that, as you point out about your Dad, just because someone has ridden for a long time doesn't make them a good rider. I've seen plenty of "experienced" riders crash in Basic a Rider classes. Self taught ignorants who don't know how, or why a bike works. I don't expect I'd find many of "those" riders here, especially with the vast population of international members who probably have received by government decree, superior required training.

Learn to absorb quietly, and stop being an arrogant nitwit. And your persistent defense of your "know more than you" attitude makes me want to come out, throw you over my knee, and paddle you like a smart-mouthed 5 year old.

Signed,
Your Daddy.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis