Author Topic: headlight causing short in charging system?  (Read 1218 times)

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Offline Buttmask

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headlight causing short in charging system?
« on: July 02, 2014, 10:05:13 AM »
So after getting and installed a new Regulator and Rectifier from Oregon Motorcycles. I had some issues with my regulator not getting power. 

I followed the instructions of touching the red wire off the Rectifier with my meter, and adjusting the regulator to 14.5v at 2000 rpm. Anyway, after cleaning a lot of contacts I finally got a good reading, set it and forget it.

Recently I noticed my battery wasn't getting a good charge again, I again did the rectifier reading and was only getting my battery charge once again and no matter how much I adjusted my regulator, the voltage stayed the same.. I started cleaning contacts again. I had pulled my headlight off, and boom, regulator was getting full voltage and was able to be adjusted. Upon plugging my headlight back in, the issue went back to the same, only batter voltage.

Now I have cleaned the hell out of all the contacts for the headlight, once its unplugged, charging system is great. Once its plugged in, charging system doesnt work. I've tried 2 different headlights, both are sealed beam, one OEM and a new sylvania one. Both do the same thing.

What's the problem here? Is the headlight itself causing this or a connection or what?

Offline Duanob

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 10:39:43 AM »
If you go back to the Oregon Motorcycle website you will find his very helpful FAQ on how to diagnose electrical issues. My guess is a bad wire somewhere that doesn't look it but can still be bad. I found three main wires that were bad as well as a couple of connections. These wires don't last forever.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 10:47:02 AM »
You must adjust/ check voltage when the battery is at known full charge?
This is because the battery voltage dominates system voltage.  It's charge status must be at full when making system checks as the vreg is what protects it from overcharge.

The charging system, is only capable of 12-14 amps when at full output.  The battery can supply hundreds even thousands of amps for a brief period.  What the battery can supply can also be absorbed.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Buttmask

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 10:53:05 AM »
The battery is at full charge. Brand new AGM battery.

Whats happening is it seems the Regulator is not getting a charge at all when the ground for the headlight is plugged in. I have a new plug and wires, clean contacts for the the headlight. When the headlight is plugged in, no charge to Regulator, headlight unplugged, the regulator gets a charge.

The regulator cannot be adjusted at all when the headlight is plugged in, it reads around 13.7v. When the headlight is unplugged, the regulator can be adjusted and acting normally.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2014, 11:04:43 AM »
The battery is at full charge. Brand new AGM battery.
We are going to need numbers here.
The battery should be at 12.6V-12.8V before testing begins.  New does not mean full.  Even a new battery can be depleted, as it is not an infinite power source.

Whats happening is it seems the Regulator is not getting a charge at all when the ground for the headlight is plugged in.
I have a new plug and wires, clean contacts for the the headlight. When the headlight is plugged in, no charge to Regulator, headlight unplugged, the regulator gets a charge.
This report makes no sense at all.  The regulator never gets a "charge".  It is the manager of power distribution from the alternator based on what the battery needs, and uses voltage monitoring to make that determination.

The regulator cannot be adjusted at all when the headlight is plugged in, it reads around 13.7v. When the headlight is unplugged, the regulator can be adjusted and acting normally.
If the system load is more than the alternator can supply, the output will self limit to 150 watts max.  You system can't get more than the alternator can generate, no matter where you set the regulator adjustment.

Just how much power does your headlight and other system loads demand?  What other electrical mods from stock have been made?

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Buttmask

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2014, 11:20:27 AM »
BATTERY-13.0v reading.

I was following instructions PER OREGON. Insert + lead of multimeter to RED wire on RECTIFIER, get RPM's to 2000. Adjust the REGULATOR to 14.5v.

Currently-Reading with headlight plugged in at 2000rpm. 13.7v. With headlight plugged in, regulator CANNOT be adjusted, no matter what direction the adjustment screw is turned, voltage stays the same.

HEADLIGHT UNPLUGGED- Regulator can be adjusted and set to a specific voltage.

I was at one time able to adjust regulator with the headlight plugged in, everything above is a very new issue.

Sorry I am not that well-versed in the lingo of electronics or their true function. I am just describing my issue.

My bike is '75 750F. 3 ohm Coils, Dyna S igition, Regular sealed-beam headlight.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 11:46:35 AM »
Ok, well you cannot use a voltmeter with only one of its leads connected.  It indicates what potential is present between both leads and lead placement matters.
Yes, it's a picky nuance.  But, those picky nuances can make a big difference is analysis of an issue.  Electricity is very rigid in rule behavior.

It's probably time to use an ohm meter to measure check the alternator and field coils for integrity.
White and green wire to alternator is the field coil.  For a 750, they should be 6.8-7.2 ohms with them unconnected to any other device.  Check your meter display when the probe tips are together first.  Note display reading and subtract that error bias from further resistance checks.

Next check the yellows disconnected from the rectifier.  Book says .35 ohms, which is hard to read with common test tools.  It should be a low ohms value and none of them should show a resistance to the engine case.

Next would be checking the six diodes in the rectifier portion of the R/R.

If one phase of the 3 phase alternator weren't connected, the 210 watt alternator becomes a 140 watt alternator.   With all the other electrical loads on the bike, adding on the headlight could put the alternator into "self limit" mode at the lower output level.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Buttmask

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 12:02:18 PM »
Ok, well, pardon my detail left out, the black lead was touching frame ground. (obviously or I probably wouldnt be getting any reading on my meter) I will use my multimeter and do the tests listed.

Offline Buttmask

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2014, 12:23:57 PM »
White to Green showed a resistance of 8 ohms. None of the yellows registered on my multimeter. Would the white to green reading being off cause this issue?

Offline PeWe

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2014, 01:47:32 PM »
......
My bike is '75 750F. 3 ohm Coils, Dyna S igition, Regular sealed-beam headlight.

This sounds as my experience.... I have read about 3 ohms coils here on this forum and therefore prepared for a quick decision.
I gave up 3 ohms coils (green) with Dyna S direct after my first test ride with it. Battery almost drained when the electrical starter just was able to start the engine again when parking  at my return.  Half test run parking light front only (10W)(5W) + rear and meters. Return home with H4 Lo (55W) +(10W)(5W) parking light. (20minutes + 20 minutes and mostly 5000-7000 rpms)

I changed to 5 ohms coils (black) and it took much less power.

Next was to remove the Dyna S, in with new OEM points (TEC). Adjusted the points 1:4, 2:3 static. Strobe light spot on at idle, full adv OK too. AND the bike started to run MUCH better and less A needed.

(The Dyna might not have been exactly adjusted, but this is the same way people compare old points with new Dyna, old ignition not exactly set, new is and therefore "much better". I understand heavy modified engines in need of different advance curves that Dyna 2000 offer, stiffened adv springs might not be enough then)

Hondaman ignition module is next mod going in when it arrive into my postbox.

I have only one W consumer left, parking light front (5W) that is on together with my Hi/LO (H4). I like the P on my bar switch, but it need to be off with Hi/Lo on. Another relay (opening) going in that switch off parking when power Hi/Lo (H4). (Right handle bar switch can not be modified solving this)

I like to drive a bike that I trust without constant need of charging battery when not used even if I'm not planning an European tour going 3000km's south and 3000km's home again as I did 4 times during the 80's, with points.

EDIT: When installing a relay + small fuse (1A) for parking light to separate it from headlight I found it to be only 5W. Blown parking light should not disable the headlight.
I also discovered an amp thief, brake light was constantly on, 21W! +21W compared with rear only, 5W. Must have happened at last oil change when draining the oil tank and removal of the brake light switch. I did not check afterwards
Now 26W less during daily riding with LO on, 2.16A
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 12:08:26 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline TwoTired

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 03:56:25 PM »
Ok, well, pardon my detail left out, the black lead was touching frame ground. (obviously or I probably wouldnt be getting any reading on my meter) I will use my multimeter and do the tests listed.

While the frame should be at Battery NEG potential, until it is verified, it is an unknown.  Further, the Stock wire harness uses and battery neg reference distribution in the form of green wires.  There is possibility to have disconnect anywhere, so assumption can easily get a troubleshooter in confusing trouble.

You sort of have to proceed like all assumed constants are variable until confirmed.

White to Green showed a resistance of 8 ohms. None of the yellows registered on my multimeter. Would the white to green reading being off cause this issue?

No, eight ohms is just slightly outside a measurement margin of error.   Though there could be some connection resistance added to the coil core resistance.
   The yellows are measured yellow to yellow.  Yellow to frame or green or battery neg should not register.

I've posted the following a few times.  Maybe it will help.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline PeWe

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2014, 12:22:36 PM »
I have got opposite problem .. Before too low battery voltage when charging.... now too high...

Checked the voltage today with fully charged (GEL) battery 13.4V something. Now opposite problem when it charged 15V and more at 3000-4000rpm. The regulator should be easier to adjust.

I could not get it to switch over to low mode direct when adjusting the screw with locking nut outwards. Voltage under 15V if the headlight is ON. It might adjust by itself after some driving...? I adjusted as much outwards I thought will be OK later on.

I have voltage supervision with a LED, green when OK, flashing green/ red at >15.2V that will show me when voltage can harm the battery. (Yellow when too low)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190748654357?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
Other models like chassi mont
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Gammatronix-Ltd-Electronics-Store?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 01:40:43 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline TwoTired

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2014, 02:02:20 PM »
Have you checked your voltage indicator calibration with a known good meter or calibrated voltage source?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline PeWe

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Re: headlight causing short in charging system?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 10:02:29 AM »
I had a voltmeter connected to battery and read ~15.2V when switching to red/green flash.
Saw when changing to green so I know it works as an indication of OK charging/battery status and warning if voltage drops. OK for me if >15.2V/<13.2V are clearly indicated with OK green between.

This show for me that everything will work fine with points, even with daylight H4 front as it always have with my bike.
The LED was more for fun when i ordered it, now an important indicator to have charging/battery status under constant observation
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967