Author Topic: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame  (Read 4459 times)

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DH

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The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« on: July 13, 2014, 09:33:35 PM »
It's where I belong for my most recent mistake. I know better, but when you s&!t
in one hand and wish in the other, well you know.....For the first since I've owned it, my 750 failed to start recently after an extended winter storage, inside, in climate controlled comfort. It cranked it guts out, but was flat as a pancake. Checked all the requirements, all present, fuel/fire/timed dead on. took bowls off and found 2 main jets that had fallen out. Ok, checked all 4 and tightened. Won't make that mistake again. Still flat, tho #3 was trying very hard to go....NEVER think that old fuel won't
lose its potency untreated, even if the bike is pampered inside during winter months.
I had siphoned some and it ran the mower, it ran the weed eater, but the bike don't like it. Use fresh or treated fuel. Your bike likes it :)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 10:42:41 PM »
Here in Colorado, if the gas sits in the carb bowls for about 10-14 days it turns a brown color and you can't even light it with a match (I've tried several times!). It goes bad so fast that I have worn out many of the bowl drain screws on my carbs from having to dry out a bowl or two to get it started after it sits (like when I got on business trips for 5-10 days).

Lawn mowers and weedeaters (and portable generators) have compression ratios like 8.5:1 and run very 'wet' at low speeds so they can be hand-started. This lets even poor fuels (like ethanol) start by hand. Taken to the [old] extreme: the Ford Model T had 7.4:1 CR so it could run on a mix of gas and kerosene (aka "coal oil") or acetone or moonshine (I've actually seen that one, in Missouri when I was a kid!). Harleys are similar: up until the EVO engines they had 8:1 CR tops on the big engines. I think the old 74 CI engine was 7:1, and it could fire gas that was so old it stank!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline trueblue

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 02:34:04 AM »
You Americans must have really #$%*ty fuel, I have used fuel that had been sitting in my bike for 6 months without an issue.  Doesn't turn to snot in the carbs and eat their insides.  Even the ethanol blends aren't too bad, they will last only about 3-4 months, but I won't use that crap in my bike if I can avoid it.
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DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 04:59:47 AM »
Here in Colorado, if the gas sits in the carb bowls for about 10-14 days it turns a brown color and you can't even light it with a match (I've tried several times!). It goes bad so fast that I have worn out many of the bowl drain screws on my carbs from having to dry out a bowl or two to get it started after it sits (like when I got on business trips for 5-10 days).

Lawn mowers and weedeaters (and portable generators) have compression ratios like 8.5:1 and run very 'wet' at low speeds so they can be hand-started. This lets even poor fuels (like ethanol) start by hand. Taken to the [old] extreme: the Ford Model T had 7.4:1 CR so it could run on a mix of gas and kerosene (aka "coal oil") or acetone or moonshine (I've actually seen that one, in Missouri when I was a kid!). Harleys are similar: up until the EVO engines they had 8:1 CR tops on the big engines. I think the old 74 CI engine was 7:1, and it could fire gas that was so old it stank!


That explanation makes sense. Every season when I wake it up, its ALWAYS in a
"foul mood", sometimes requiring kick starting. Soon as I get it going, it'll continue to run
and restart after that. This year I did notice "grey-ish crap in the bowls that looked fuel related, and the emulsifier tubes/mains were stained. The thing would just barely run, only on #3, (other pipes BARELY warm at all) and only
with constant aid of the starter motor. It would die completely as soon as I let off the button.  ANY attempt to run on its own while holding the throttle open resulted in a giant "bog" before dying again. Another reason to avoid ethanol if at all possible? Or at least treat with stabil or the like. I learned my lesson. I had to remove and clean the plugs as well. All is well w/fresh fuel now, and 
I'm glad I decided to VERIFY fuel quality BEFORE going on a "witch hunt" in other
areas, thus, assuring me a permanent spot in the "Hall of Shame" ;D

Offline dusterdude

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 05:14:48 AM »
Yep,our gas sucks


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Offline cb650

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 05:55:49 AM »
The gas does suck but my 82 nitehawk just fired after sitting 8 months. 
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline greenjeans

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 06:10:39 AM »
ETHANOL SUCKS.    I can't wait for the day when the corn lobby stops bribing our legislators.
Yep, I'm the kid that figured out how to put things back together...eventually.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 06:11:24 AM »
Here is a list of ethanol free gas station in MO:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MO

That web page needs to get promoted more, IMHO.
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Offline Duanob

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 11:33:43 AM »
I try and drain everything, tank, bowls etc for winter storage. I even put in Stabil for my last tank in case some fuel is still sitting somewhere in the system. Then after draining I spray some light oil in the bowl drains to keep things from corrosion build up. So far  no problems.

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Offline Kevin D

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 11:47:50 AM »
I go tank full, carbs empty, for the 6 month off season here in Michigan. Never had a problem with restarts, but I'm always more comfortable after the first tank is burned and with the fresh springtime fuel in.

I once had an emulsifier tube and main jet drop into the bowl. The bike ran pretty bad for about a week until I found it. I won a bottle of wine at a poker run riding it like that. Thank you Huron Valley Night Hawks.
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Offline dave500

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 12:34:43 PM »
You Americans must have really #$%*ty fuel, I have used fuel that had been sitting in my bike for 6 months without an issue.  Doesn't turn to snot in the carbs and eat their insides.  Even the ethanol blends aren't too bad, they will last only about 3-4 months, but I won't use that crap in my bike if I can avoid it.

I can leave fuel in chainsaws etc for two years and they still start up?

Offline Vicman

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 12:51:02 PM »
I just make a goal of riding at least once a month. So far it has worked.
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DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2014, 01:55:06 PM »
Here is a list of ethanol free gas station in MO:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MO

That web page needs to get promoted more, IMHO.


I've seen that before. Unfortunately all of those places are outside St. Louis by a
far distance, and most in rural areas. Due to air pollution standards, and high concentrations of traffic in a relatively small area, we get stuck with ethanol gas.
I suspect, but can't prove, that this crap is responsible for other problems related to fuel system as well. Like, why won't fuel line last longer than a season without shrinking and getting hard as a rock. I recently had to replace my K/N factory style air filter because
the rubber frame shrank and became rock hard like the fuel line. The element frame
will no longer fit the lip that locates it in the airbox. I bought a good used one (thanks Mr. Breeze), and compared it to my own. Probably 2-3% shrinkage compared to the replacement, and far less flexable/supple.

DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2014, 01:58:52 PM »

No logic, only tragedy for all involved.

Sorry, DH. Bring back leaded fuel!!!!
[/quote]


You got that right Cal....Ethyl would be nice :) Sunoco 260 anyone? :)

Offline lucky

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 02:02:49 PM »
You Americans must have really #$%*ty fuel, I have used fuel that had been sitting in my bike for 6 months without an issue.  Doesn't turn to snot in the carbs and eat their insides.  Even the ethanol blends aren't too bad, they will last only about 3-4 months, but I won't use that crap in my bike if I can avoid it.

The companies that make the fuel say 60 days until you have problems with the fuel.

DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 02:18:53 PM »
Funny thing is, the Ethyl corporation is right here in Richmond, VA. Privately owned by the Gottwald family. Exceptionally nice people, and very philanthropic with their resources. I can't hold them to blame for the "Ethanol" debacle. Its definitely the pinheads in DC that make up this Greek Tragedies-

Sunoco 260. Ha! Theres a walk down memory lane- My kids still marvel at the stories told around the dinner table regarding the price of cigs, gas, movies, McDs from "when I was growing up". Man I feel old  :-[



I hear ya....I live way in the past sometimes..  :)  Seriously tho, I'd bet the gasoline blends are more suited towards the automotive industry. Fuel injection can probably atomize that garbage a lot more redily than our old carbs ever could.
And the stuff is used up in a few days, so it has little time to go stale. And the
difference in results of ethanol gas performance is probably linked to where you live
and what specific blend you get. I started this thread to mainly mention that
if you have a hard/no start condition, VERIFY the condition/age of the fuel BEFORE
you change any adjustments. i hope that in it self will help folks. I do appreciate everyones input as well. Informative 8) ...If anyone feels the need to confess their sins in the "Hall", By all means.... ;D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 02:41:20 PM by DH »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 10:30:13 PM »
Or at least treat with stabil or the like.

AAAHHH!! Don't do that! The combination of Sta-Bil (formaldehyde solution) and ethanol eats the brass and zinc-alum bowls. I get a LOT of carbs that require MASSIVE repair from this combination. Some don't make the trip... :(

Supposedly, STAR has an ethanol-friendly version of this preservative, haven't tried it.

The best bet: drain the float bowls for long storage, and either add 4 ounces of oil to the tank (to prevent the rust that WILL occur as the ethanol absorbs water from the air) or best of all: add 4-6 ounces oil to a full tank of gas, shake well, then suck it out and use it in your car (or lawn mower). This leaves a protective oil film inside the tank that mimics real gasoline and helps stave off rust.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 10:31:44 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 10:45:50 PM »
Here is a list of ethanol free gas station in MO:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MO

That web page needs to get promoted more, IMHO.


I've seen that before. Unfortunately all of those places are outside St. Louis by a
far distance, and most in rural areas. Due to air pollution standards, and high concentrations of traffic in a relatively small area, we get stuck with ethanol gas.
I suspect, but can't prove, that this crap is responsible for other problems related to fuel system as well. Like, why won't fuel line last longer than a season without shrinking and getting hard as a rock. I recently had to replace my K/N factory style air filter because
the rubber frame shrank and became rock hard like the fuel line. The element frame
will no longer fit the lip that locates it in the airbox. I bought a good used one (thanks Mr. Breeze), and compared it to my own. Probably 2-3% shrinkage compared to the replacement, and far less flexable/supple.

Right you are: the ethanol causes the neoprene to swell almost 10% in length (O-rings and seals, too), causing fuel leaks. When dried back out, it then has removed the flex elements of neoprene, making it brittle and stiff. Even the best fuel hoses, rated for ethanol, suffer from this, so superior clamps are needed when the hoses are wetted.

One fine example: I recently struggled to change a fuel pump (inside the gas tank) on my car. Upon removal, the O-ring that seals the tank SPRANG out of the metal clamp when I released it. It had grown more than 1" in diameter. There was no way to put it back together. I ordered a new O-ring seal, which took 3 days to arrive. When I crawled back under the car, the original O-ring was once again the correct diameter, but very stiff and inflexible. Always the Experimenter, I dipped in into the gas again for a few minutes, went to lunch. When I came back, it was almost 1/2" larger OD again. I installed instead the new one, but kept the old seal ring (metal) to see what happened next: the following day, the old O-ring fit back into the groove, but slightly tight.

The ethanol swelled the O-ring more than 10% in diameter, and made the cross-section almost that much thicker. When it finally dried out, it was 3% smaller (cross-section) than the brand-new one I had bought, and the ID of the O-ring was about 2% smaller, too.

After sitting in the garage for another 2 weeks, the wetted side of the seal ring, now stripped of its plating by the ethanol, rusted a LOT. Here in desert Colorado, that's very unusual. I see it happen inside our fuel tanks, often. The only way I have found to stop it is to coat the inside of the tanks with POR15, nothing else seems to work and last.

In the engine: the valve guides (stock iron ones) lose all lubrication with ethanol, which is why I often recommend top oil in the gas. Bronze guides improve things somewhat, but can still benefit from some top oil in the gas. I've recently switched to using synthetic 2-stroke oils, to try to reduce the buildup in the pipes: these really AREN'T 2-strokers, so the pipes aren't designed to not collect oil...this stuff is supposed to burn more completely in the engine. We'll see?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 10:51:52 PM »
Or at least treat with stabil or the like.

AAAHHH!! Don't do that! The combination of Sta-Bil (formaldehyde solution) and ethanol eats the brass and zinc-alum bowls. I get a LOT of carbs that require MASSIVE repair from this combination. Some don't make the trip... :(

Supposedly, STAR has an ethanol-friendly version of this preservative, haven't tried it.

The best bet: drain the float bowls for long storage, and either add 4 ounces of oil to the tank (to prevent the rust that WILL occur as the ethanol absorbs water from the air) or best of all: add 4-6 ounces oil to a full tank of gas, shake well, then suck it out and use it in your car (or lawn mower). This leaves a protective oil film inside the tank that mimics real gasoline and helps stave off rust.

Have you seen this stabil product Mark..?   I couldn't find anywhere where it says formaldehyde is in Stabil at all..?
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Offline trueblue

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 02:00:45 AM »
The gas does suck but my 82 nitehawk just fired after sitting 8 months. 

Shows the superior engineering of the 650's ;D
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Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
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Offline cb650

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 03:08:46 AM »
Dont say that we will surely be flamed or banned or something bad.
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline trueblue

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 03:13:14 AM »
They are only jealous that their 750's and 550's aren't anywhere near as good as the 650's.  Anything they say contrary to this is only their jealousy talking  ;D ;D
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 04:57:31 AM »
http://www.goldeagle.com/product/sta-bil-360-protection-ethanol-fuel-treatment-stablizer


This is what I saw the other day. What say you gentleman? Please know, I have no clue, just wondering /your thoughts.

DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 05:00:29 AM »
Sta-Bil: might be some truth to the conflict with Ethanol as they have only recently (2-3 years ago) begun producing an Ethanol-aware formula here in the states.

I switched years back to SeaFoam with very good results, but have used the Sta-Bil marine formula in a pinch in a 2 stroke marine outboard with perfect results.


Cal j , Sea-foam is probably less expensive as well, yes?

Offline RJ CB450

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 10:55:20 AM »
I am lucky.  Where I live, Shell 91 octane is ethanol free.  And a good seafoam start and end of year for good measure.  I did have to go ugly 87 with? ethanol the other day.... but used it up fast then refilled.
74 CB450 K7 Supersport, 82 CB650sc Nighthawk, 1982 CBX 1000, 2015 Tiger XCx.... And some ol minibike with a 5hp Briggs.

Offline bwaller

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2014, 11:33:19 AM »
RJ, I don't know from where you hail but my understanding is the same...here in Canada Shell 91 is E-free so I use it when I can. It doesn't state it on the pump though, just hear say from other guys I race with.

Offline Hon3ybadger

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 07:45:20 PM »
So if this is the Hall of Shame shouldn't we all be swapping stories of stupid and shameful things we've done over the years?

Offline RJ CB450

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 08:46:11 PM »
RJ, I don't know from where you hail but my understanding is the same...here in Canada Shell 91 is E-free so I use it when I can. It doesn't state it on the pump though, just hear say from other guys I race with.

Saskatchewan here.  Other stations don't say, and from what I have found in searching, the shell 91 seems to be the only E-free gasoline in the province.  It has the label right on the pump.  87 is 10%, 89 is 5% and 91 is ethanol free.

But my addition to the Hall of Shame.  After not riding for a couple years, I got onto the 82 SOHC Nighthawk first time with my not whisper quiet exhaust.  Was a charity ride that day and as of yet, hadn't been on the road with it.  Filled up tank first time at station, pulled out, and like not even a minute later, engine start to stall.  I hadn't opened petcock (was an old worn one, so off wasn't 100% off).

I flip it open while rolling, starts to catch and because I hadn't synced carbs yet, give it a good clutch in rev to bring the RPMs back up...
...Right beside a police traffic enforcement vehicle that was coming the other way.  I saw brake lights, and that  explorer come to a complete stop in a major traffic lane, but fortunately they kept on going.  I almost wished I had been pulled over so I could explain it and have more to the story.

To day, that is my favorite fail/win involving motorcycles!
74 CB450 K7 Supersport, 82 CB650sc Nighthawk, 1982 CBX 1000, 2015 Tiger XCx.... And some ol minibike with a 5hp Briggs.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 11:12:45 PM »
So if this is the Hall of Shame shouldn't we all be swapping stories of stupid and shameful things we've done over the years?

How 'bout this one? I've ridden this bike for over 40 years, and sometimes I STILL leave the gas off and head off down the road!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

DH

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 11:12:55 PM »
So if this is the Hall of Shame shouldn't we all be swapping stories of stupid and shameful things we've done over the years?


We could do it that way. I was kinda half serious when I started it. It's been a good thread IMHO, full of good information.  :)

Offline trueblue

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2014, 02:12:00 AM »
So if this is the Hall of Shame shouldn't we all be swapping stories of stupid and shameful things we've done over the years?

How 'bout this one? I've ridden this bike for over 40 years, and sometimes I STILL leave the gas off and head off down the road!
I had one of those moments a few months ago, I took off down the road.  There was a scooter hogging the road going 40 kph, I overtook him.  About 150m down the road I came to a stop sign.  Pulled up and the bike conked out.  Turned the tap on and it took a little for the fuel to refill the bowl.  The scooter came up, rounded me and continued on its way.  Well the bike finally started and I continued on, only to come up behind the scooter again in a short period.  I've never seen a scooter take up so much road.  He was wandering from white line to white line, and there was on coming traffic so I couldn't round him.  Eventually I got a break in traffic and got round him, but that prick did everything he could to stop me. >:(
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline evanphi

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Re: The SOHC4 Hall Of Shame
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 09:35:13 AM »
All "Premium" gas in NB is E-free. There is a sticker between the two lower grades that says they may contain up to 10% ethanol. I try and avoid those two whenever possible now... especially now that my mileage issue is fixed! ;D

Speaking of petcocks... I've *so far* only forgot to turn back on ONCE. I was stopped at the mall, and then got right back on the highway... long slow incline after the on-ramp. Boy that was fun when the fuel stopped!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 09:37:02 AM by evanphi »
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive