Author Topic: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues  (Read 2891 times)

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Offline TAMM

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1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« on: April 15, 2017, 09:50:04 PM »
Hey all, this is my first post here on the forum, as well as my first bike ever (college project).

Some background: I bought the bike about a year and a half ago, picked it up real cheap because the the PO didn't want to deal with cleaning the carbs on an otherwise 90% mint bike hiding under some grease and grime. I towed it home (no license at the time) and started work on it. I pulled the rack of carbs off and tore them apart, cleaned them thoroughly and reinstalled them.

At this point it ran fine, apart from needing to replace the Reg/Rec, and it was a great starter bike. At the start of this season I decided to address a nagging problem on the bike; it wept oil from somewhere in the head gasket area. Not much, but enough to be annoying, topping up the oil every couple of weeks, really not a lot but the bike would sometimes smoke at stoplights, and it plain didn't look good with a film of oil.

I took the valve covers off, loosened the valve tappets, and removed the entire head cover assembly. If you have followed to this point, you may know what my problem was: the six little rubber pucks that seal off the head bolts from the oil flow. I had six new ones, put gasket material on each one and stuck em in there.

I reassembled the bike, lashed the valves and fired it up. At this point I had good news and bad news.

Good: Not only was the oil not leaking any more, but lashing the valves WOKE the bike UP! The throttle response was lightyears better.

Bad: An unholy clattering had developed from the engine.

My wrenching buddy and I let it run for a minute to see if it went away, then shut it down when it didnt. We decided that the cam chain must be loose, and a quick google search showed us that retightening the cam chain should be done before lashing valves.

The next day we decided to tear back into the bike and redo the lashing job, brimming with knowledge. I loosened the little nut, gave it a tap and had my buddy spin the engine while I snugged the nut up. We re-relashed the valves and started it up again. The noise was still there, so we went inside and banged our heads against the wall for a while.

(rinse and repeat a few times, no success)

After more attempts than i would like to admit, I decided we needed to re-remove the head cover and really see what was going on in the chain tunnel. I couldn't see much but I could feel the chain was loose. I loosened the top bolt that holds the adjuster to the block and the adjuster nut, and used a long extension to tap on the adjuster.

We saw some movement and felt that the chain was tight! Not drum tight, but certainly way tighter than it was before. I only tightened the top nut, then reassembled, re-re-re-re-relashed the valves, and then once again had my buddy spin the engine while I snugged up the adjuster nut. I should say that the bike had been starting somewhat hard it's whole life, but when I hit the start button this time the bike did not hesitate to fire immediately while cold.

But the rattle is still there. We are at a loss, I'll probably try and knock the tensioner around some more, get some oil/lube on it and see what that does, but any advice would be great! I'll post pictures at some point.

TL;DR: I can't for the life of me get the cam chain on my 1981 cb650 to tighten/stay tight.

Thanks!

Offline Scott S

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 02:35:38 AM »
 The bottom of the tensioner rests in a "cup" in the lower engine case. You probably don't have it seated correctly.

'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 05:21:01 AM »
That's what I'm thinking too. You should be able to view it by dropping the oil pan and looking in from there.

If it's not seated, the cylinders have to be raised half an inch or so.


Offline TAMM

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 05:48:00 PM »
Thanks for the info guys, when the weather clears up I'm gonna take a peek at the lower mounting point.

Offline TAMM

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 06:17:57 PM »
You guys were totally right! Popped off the oil pan and it looked just like the picture DaveBarbier posted. I'm going to assume that I will have to pull the jugs up a few inches to re-seat it. Is this a fair assumption or is there a better way?


Offline cb650

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 02:22:09 AM »
it can be done with cyls in place but takes  force.     
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline Scott S

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 03:35:39 AM »
You guys were totally right!

 Ask me how I knew..... (Rolls eyes).
 The best way is to lift the cylinders a bit.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 04:23:48 AM »
Since you're going to be disturbing the head gasket and base gasket, I'd like to hear what other members say about replacing them. You'll definitely need a new head gasket, but the base gasket seems less critical. Although it often tears when you're trying to separate it.

Do replace the oil supply o-rings under the head and cylinders. Get OEM o-rings. Aftermarket often are too thin and you'd hate to have leaks after this job is done. I'd also get an OEM head gasket.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 04:26:10 AM »
it can be done with cyls in place but takes  force.   

You've done it? I could see removing it with force could work but you'd really have to bend the tensioner to get the adjustment screw back in it's hole.

Offline jonda500

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 03:34:18 PM »
The head gasket can be reused if lifting the head doesn't damage it. Back when I kept finding broken valve springs in my bike, I reused my head gasket twice and despite riding the bike in-between, the head, gasket and barrels separated cleanly both times. The second time the barrels accidentally lifted slightly too... I have a very slight weep from the base gasket on one side but the head gasket is still sealing well.
John
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Offline cb650

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 04:29:25 PM »
it can be done with cyls in place but takes  force.   

You've done it? I could see removing it with force could work but you'd really have to bend the tensioner to get the adjustment screw back in it's hole.
Yes I'done it.   On  the 650 site I posted working on Adams bike.  Was marks and now at my sons.  Had to fix a bunch of BS on it.   Tension er wasnt right and starter clutch with out splitting cases also.   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 04:38:36 PM by cb650 »
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline TAMM

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 08:13:06 AM »
cb650, how did you do it? Just pushing? I'm thinking I could get two skinny lengths of allthread and run them alongside the tensioner and use little pieces of flat bar on each and and thread it up until it seats.

Offline TAMM

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2017, 10:23:03 AM »
Just took another look...allthread wouldn't fit through that gap. I think I might use a small bottle jack to apply some upward force nnd see where that gets me.

Offline cb650

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2017, 10:34:49 PM »
I just kept pushing it.   wasnt easy.  Adam was getting discouraged by then and even left.  I had to step away untill the next day and got it.
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline TAMM

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2017, 04:42:59 PM »
An update for anyone watching this thread... I managed to re-seat the tensioner without removing the head! I'll describe the process for anyone curious.

I removed everything down to the head cover, so the cam was exposed and took the oil pan off and let it all drain. I took the gear off the cam and rested the cam and chain on some shop towels on the front of the engine, which gave me plenty of room to work on the tensioner.

I removed the adjuster nut and the top mounting bolt for the tensioner, at which point the adjuster was free to move about the country. I re-seated it in the little pocket at the bottom, and scratched my head for a while about how I was going to compress the tensioner down to get the adjusting stud and mounting bolt where they needed to be.

I ran to home depot and got a length of 1/2" threaded rod and two appropriate threaded spacers. I cut a notch in the top of one spacer to rest on the underside of the frame, and trimmed the threaded rod and the other spacer so the whole apparatus would fit between the frame and tensioner when in the smallest configuration.

HERE IS WHERE YOU NEED TO BE CAREFUL!!! When you are compressing the tensioner into the engine, go really slow and make sure the adjuster stud doesn't get hung up. Right above the hole the stud is supposed to slip into, there's a shelf which the stud got caught on and I thought I bent the stud.
I reset for another try and made sure to use a long screwdriver to make sure the stud stayed clear and got into the hole.

It's extremely finicky and takes a bit of shimmying and trying to get right but it cost me like $3, and a new gasket set online is in the ballpark of $90, so it's still a bargain.

Let me know if you guys have any questions, and thanks for all your help!!

Also, even after doing all this there is still a ticking coming from the valvetrain. :'( I've lashed the valves about a million times, and I've read a vaccum leak or un-synced carbs can cause that, so I'm going to look into those next. Any input would be appreciated.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2017, 05:23:42 PM »
Have any pictures of your process? I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're saying. But nice job, where there's a will, there's a way.

Why don't you take a good video of it running, it could be just the normal 'angry sewing machine' sound.

Offline TAMM

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Re: 1981 CB650C Cam Chain Tensioner Issues
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2017, 08:20:19 PM »
I'm hopefully gonna get into it this weekend and I'll be sure to take plenty of pictures and videos to report back with this weekend.