Author Topic: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich  (Read 5855 times)

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Offline Scott S

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'76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« on: July 15, 2014, 04:39:39 AM »
 A couple years ago, I picked up a '76 550K engine and 087A carbs from Craigslist. Swapped them into my '71 CB500 and away I went! And so did the gas mileage....

 I went from 36-38 mpg to around 26 mpg. I made several threads on it at the time, cleaned carbs, pulled emulsion tubes, etc., etc.

 Last year, I picked up a one-owner '76 550F with the 069A carbs. This was a well stored, well cared for bike. Cleaned carbs (and stupid me didn't think to check needles or jets, as I assumed it was stock) and, while the bike runs well, it TOO is rich. I'm getting ~26-28 mpg with an all time best of 28.9 mpg.

 What is it about the '76 models that seems to make them run rich? I've been PM'd SEVERAL times by forum members who found my other thread(s) and they have the same issue.

 Assuming that the valves are adjusted, carbs synched, good O-rings in the carbs, etc., what would make the bike rich?
 I can see and smell it out of the tail pipe on the 550F, especially when you get down on it. The F model is stock other than a UNI filter in the stock air box. The K engine had the UNI and a MAC exhaust.

 I messaged the original owner of the 550F today because I know at one time he ran a Kerker exhaust on it,  and he said "Wow! That was 1977! But as far as I remember, we didn't do anything to the carbs".
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 06:37:09 AM by Scott S »
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 06:11:24 AM »
Interestingly I have the same issues with my 76 550k. 
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Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 06:19:04 AM »
 You're not the only one. I've been PM'd several times.

 The 500 ran great and got excellent mileage. My '78 550K with the PD carbs has been bored, ported and polished head, CB650 cam, jetted, etc., etc. I regularly get 45-50 mpg with it.
 It seems to be something with the '76 model(s), but I can't figure out what.
'71 CB500 K0
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Offline Tews19

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 06:30:31 AM »
Scott do you mean 069 carbs on the 550F? That's what they come with. I'm sure you covered it but are you running the stock jets? Maybe move the needle up? On my 75 550F I had it running about 38-40 mpg. I ran a lossa reverse megaphone with the stock header.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 06:41:07 AM »
Scott do you mean 069 carbs on the 550F? That's what they come with..

 Sorry....fixed that. Yes, 069A carbs.

 I know the numbers on the jets and needles in the 087A carbs were stamped stock. I never measured to see if they had been bored out.

 It's been about a year since I cleaned the 069A carbs and I can't imagine that I wouldn't at least LOOK at the numbers since I had trouble with the other '76 engine, but it's been a while and I honestly can't say that for sure.
 I have no reason to believe they're not stock.

 One could make a case for worn emulsion tubes on the 550K carbs, since they came to me non-running and needing a decent cleaning. But the 550F was a one owner, well cared for, properly stored example with only 5K miles on it. No way those emulsion tubes/needles are worn.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 07:10:03 AM »

 It seems to be something with the '76 model(s), but I can't figure out what.

A few years ago I had a '76 550F.  I had similar issues getting it to run right, was very frustrating.  Got fed up and sold it, bought my K4 750.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 07:31:06 AM »
 The 550F runs great....just very rich.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 07:54:12 AM »
Hmmm, strange. Have you tried without an airfilter? You could set the airscrews a bit leaner and see what that does. Or replace the #100 mainjets by #90. Personally I wouldn't play with the needles.
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 08:17:48 AM »
my 76 550k with stock 087A carbs configuration is below.  i have been having low speed off throttle richness, black smoky soothy exhaust

stock air box with uni filter
38 slow jets (went through 3 sets to rule out if i  had bad jets)
100 or 105 (tried both main jets)
needle clips (tried 3rd notch and 4 notch and even shimmed with washers between the notches)
motogp exhaust
650 camshaft
orings by intake were replaced and rubber boots are inspected

carbs have been off plenty of times! hahaha
Life Is Full Of Challenges - And My Backyard Is Full Of SOHC4's

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And the little ones z50r, xr50r, st90


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Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 09:57:30 AM »
 See! It's not just me! There's something odd about the '76 models.

 I know Honda went to the PD series the next year as part of an emissions tuning exercise, but you wouldn't think they'd go RICHER for one year.
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Offline Tews19

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 10:58:54 AM »
If all works out on my end I will see if the 76 I'm in the process of buying runs rich.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 12:41:26 PM »
Hmmm, strange. Have you tried without an airfilter? You could set the airscrews a bit leaner and see what that does. Or replace the #100 mainjets by #90.

  I haven't tried it without the air filter yet.

 Setting the air screws would really only affect it at idle/just off idle, correct? It's rich pretty much everywhere, even at speed and/or when rolling into the throttle hard. It smells rich when I'm behind it and black smoke rolls out if you get down on it.

 One other thing: It needs little to no choke to start, even when stone cold.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 01:01:35 PM »
The pilot screws set the minimum fuel delivery from the carbs.  It is the baseline for idle operation.  The other circuits in the carbs add their contribution when the throttle is not at idle position.

The 069A carbs are tuned for the stock air box/filter and high pressure F muffler.  If you aren't using those, they will have to be rejetted and retuned, because the bike is no longer in the stock configuration.

You should be able to tell us the pilot screw position.  And if the emulsion tubes are clean, and the float height is set properly, stock 069a jetting will make any stock engine not using the F muffler system and air cleaner, run leaner.  This will often be compensated by unwary "tuners" by closing off the pilot screw setting, in order to cure throttle twist stumble.  However, in doing so, they make the carbs run richer over the entire operating range.  And there goes the fuel economy.


I don't believe it has anything to do with the 76 model year.  I have a 76 Cb550 F which gets right around 50 MPG with stock exhaust and a UNI NU4055 filter in the the stock air box.

I can easily believe, poor fuel economy can result from owners or mechanics meddling with the carburetion, induction, and exhaust, though.
It also matters if the sprockets are stock, as well as the tires/wheels.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 04:57:45 AM »
 The F bike has the stock F muffler and air box. I'm using the same UNI filter as you.

 Checking the two outer pilot screws (since they're the easiest to get to right now), one is at 1 3/4 turns, one is just shy of 2 turns out. They were all set for best running/idle with the bike warmed up and running.

 Tires are 100/90-19 and 110/90-18. Same tire sizes on my 550K that's getting 45-50 mpg.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 08:39:10 AM »
The F bike has the stock F muffler and air box. I'm using the same UNI filter as you.
Are you over oiling the foam filter?  Describe your oiling process.  Are you squeezing out as much oil as you can after application?

Checking the two outer pilot screws (since they're the easiest to get to right now), one is at 1 3/4 turns, one is just shy of 2 turns out.  They were all set for best running/idle with the bike warmed up and running.

These carbs are not properly set by that process since idle mixtures are set for throttle response behavior off idle RPM rather than max lean conditions.  (The over rich idle setting is the primary reason why this design didn't survive the EPA mandates invoked in 1978. )
I submit that if the P.O. put a Kerker on it in 77, he also must have changed (or had the shop change) the carb internal adjustments, as the bike would run too lean without the F's native exhaust pressure.  The bike can tolerate the extra lean setting of the pilot screws because other fuel metering pathways are larger than the carbs had when showroom delivered.  Until you verify the carb's internal settings and adjustments, it's just a meaningless guessing game.

Carb details that effect fuel delivery.  (assumes parts are clear of fuel residue deposits and corrosion)  ------
• Carb bowl fuel height.  A shorter distance between fuel level and carb throat allows more fuel delivery under the same pressure level differences.
• Needle jet position and taper angle/profile.
• Main jet size.
• Emulsion tube parameters; Needle jet orifice size, size and number and placement of emulsion air holes.
• Mains and needle air jet size, or passageway restrictions.

Tires are 100/90-19 and 110/90-18. Same tire sizes on my 550K that's getting 45-50 mpg.

Show us the spark plug deposits on all four.  We need to see the ground strap and as much of the center electrode insulator as possible in a strong light.

Describe the dominant throttle position you use while operating.

Do you practice a stationary warm up period with choke applied?

Regarding 76 model trait assumptions...
Honda was trying small mods to bring the bike's emissions profile closer to what the EPA wanted.  Honda was attempting a "good faith" gesture to placate the EPA bureaucrats.  With the "deadline" of 1978 approaching, 76 models would tend to be leaner than prior models.  Possibly why the spec sheet that Delta found, stipulated solid tipped pilot screws on both the 087a and 069a carbs.  I haven't been able to locate a known unmolested 087a carb set.  I speculate that the bike ran worse with the compromising mods and owners or dealers simply reverted to 022a internal parts and settings after importation to make the bike work as it did when it was first popularized.  The F's exhaust pressure profile allowed the leaner settings to perform well.  However, the K model used the same exhaust as the the 500s and 74-75 K models with much less back pressure than the F exhaust system. (Note that the 77-78 K model exhaust runs at higher pressures than earlier 4-4 exhaust systems.)  Leaner mixtures (or less hydrocarbons out the exhaust) would be welcome by the EPA, but not so much by operator performance demands.  In the US, there was a lot of #$%*ing and moaning about what the EPA was doing to motor vehicle power profiles in that era, with many altering systems in the hope of getting to older model power responses, ad getting widely varying levels of success. 

Anyway, proclaiming a 35+ year old survivor is unaltered from new, is an assumption not easily verified.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duanob

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2014, 11:13:58 AM »
1976 550s run rich = take off like a bat out of hell! :)

It took me a w hile to figure out 2 550s. One had mismatched pilot jets, the other had crud build up on the needles holding them up out of the emulsion tube (needle jet) both causing rich conditions. I did get it figured out, the plugs are a nice dark tan color, my mileage for both is/was right around 40mpgs, depending on riding style. I did have the carbs off of both bikes many many times in the process, everytime zeroing them in a bit better each time until I got it right. The bikes are a ton of fun when dialed in. the F seemed more zippier than the K FWIW.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2014, 05:39:45 PM »


Anyway, proclaiming a 35+ year old survivor is unaltered from new, is an assumption not easily verified.

 Except, in this case, I can talk to the person that owned it for 37 years, since it was on the showroom floor, until I bought it a year ago.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2014, 05:52:05 PM »
 I went back through my pics and can verify that the emulsion tubes WERE pulled and I checked the clips against the stock positions. I also remember now that I was the first person to bend back the locking tabs on the clips/screws that hold the slides in place.

 I can't say for 100.00000%  certain that the main jets are stock, but I'm pretty darn certain that I checked them a year+ ago and everything was stock. Like I said...this is a one owner, stock, survivor.
 I replaced the O-rings in the carbs (and for certain on the main jets) and installed new needle/seat valves and set float height.


 I'm going to go back and re-read what you said about setting the mixture screws. It was my understanding that they didn't have much effect off idle. This bike is rich at all operating ranges.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 08:30:24 PM »
Except, in this case, I can talk to the person that owned it for 37 years, since it was on the showroom floor, until I bought it a year ago.

Like I said...this is a one owner, stock, survivor.
...This bike is rich at all operating ranges.
And you know this how?

I messaged the original owner of the 550F today because I know at one time he ran a Kerker exhaust on it,  and he said "Wow! That was 1977! But as far as I remember, we didn't do anything to the carbs".

A Kerker exhaust is NOT stock and needs carb changes to make it run properly, particularly near red line.  I suspect a memory aberration, or the shop that put the exhaust on made carb changes for him.

Ok, you are convinced all 76 models ran rich from the factory.   And, I'll never change your mind.   I must be lying about mine that doesn't, with known stock components.

Since there can't possibly be anything wrong with yours, I guess you'll just have to live with it the way it is.    Who is it really that you are trying to convince your bike is "normal"?

Screw it. I'm done here.  Sorry I bothered you with my superfluous and distracting posts.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2014, 03:36:16 AM »
Except, in this case, I can talk to the person that owned it for 37 years, since it was on the showroom floor, until I bought it a year ago.

Like I said...this is a one owner, stock, survivor.
...This bike is rich at all operating ranges.
And you know this how?

I messaged the original owner of the 550F today because I know at one time he ran a Kerker exhaust on it,  and he said "Wow! That was 1977! But as far as I remember, we didn't do anything to the carbs".

A Kerker exhaust is NOT stock and needs carb changes to make it run properly, particularly near red line.  I suspect a memory aberration, or the shop that put the exhaust on made carb changes for him.

Ok, you are convinced all 76 models ran rich from the factory.   And, I'll never change your mind.   I must be lying about mine that doesn't, with known stock components.

Since there can't possibly be anything wrong with yours, I guess you'll just have to live with it the way it is.    Who is it really that you are trying to convince your bike is "normal"?

Screw it. I'm done here.  Sorry I bothered you with my superfluous and distracting posts.


 Why are you getting upset? I know it's a one owner bike because his father OWNED the Honda dealer and it was his 16th birthday present. It never left the showroom until it had 400F bars and Lester mags installed.
 He rode it on the M.S.O. until 2000 and then actually titled it. It was sold new in my home town and has been here all it's life.
 I spoke to the owner myself. I spoke to friends of his that remember him getting the bike back in 1976 and riding it throughout high school and college. The title was an "A" title.
 The original owner responded to me via text last Monday when I asked if he changed jetting for the Kerker.

 If anything, the provenance of this bike and it's history are not in question.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2014, 03:39:29 AM »
 I verified that the needles/clips are stock. I know that for certain.

 I am not certain on the mains.

 I told you the mixture screw settings and will happily adjust them the "correct" way for these carbs if someone can explain that to me.

 Throw my bike out of the equation......what about the other half dozen people who are experiencing the same thing?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2014, 09:04:20 AM »
Why are you getting upset?

Frustration, because of the ill-logic being applied and perpetrated over the internet via this forum.

The 75, 76, and 77 CB550 F models all use the same carb set up, exhaust system, and induction components.  The engines are the same.  They have the same gearing, sprockets and tires.  I have examples of each and they all run the same and get the same gas mileage in the 45-50 MPG range.

Yours is NOT normal and has been meddled with in some way.  And nothing in this thread is going to convince me otherwise, regardless of how hard you preach or contrive justification.

I know it's a one owner bike because his father OWNED the Honda dealer and it was his 16th birthday present. It never left the showroom until it had 400F bars and Lester mags installed.
...
 I spoke to the owner myself. I spoke to friends of his that remember him getting the bike back in 1976 and riding it throughout high school and college. The title was an "A" title.
 The original owner responded to me via text last Monday when I asked if he changed jetting for the Kerker.

 If anything, the provenance of this bike and it's history are not in question.

Quite the contrary.  The one owner status of your particular bike proves absolutely nothing.  Particularly when you keep listing how the bike has been changed and modified over the years by that very same owner.   37 year old memories are fallible.  Do you remember mechanical work done by someone else when you were 16?   Got any documentation regarding shop receipts of work performed?  Do you really believe that P.O.s never lie?

I quit because one can't teach someone anything unless they chose to learn.  You have developed a belief system, which interferes with you actually solving a problem with your bike.

Good luck with your delusions and paying at the pump!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2014, 02:41:07 PM »
 So, make a suggestion as to what to check first or how to fix it.

 It'll be time for a valve adjustment soon and I'll probably take that opportunity to pull the carbs and double check main jet sizes.
 I'll adjust mixture screws your way if you'll be kind enough to explain how. I only know the other way....best/highest idle, etc.
 If I don't see anything wrong or get any constructive feedback, I'll lower the needles one clip and see how it performs.
'71 CB500 K0
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'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline goldarrow

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2014, 02:55:33 PM »
have a read on this thread. 

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=8115.0;nowap

If the exhausts flow better than the stock setup, the result will be richer mix. This is because of the higher volumetric efficiency and increased air speed across the jet needle hole, causing increased fuel lift. The ultimate answer is a larger cutaway on the carb slide, but this is impractical for most home mechanics. That said:

1. Try running without the air filter in place: if this helps, then replace the filter element (if used). If it gets worse, install a paper (more restrictive) element. K&N filters flow better than foam ones, foam better than paper.
2. Lower the needles in the slides before changing main jets. With black plugs, start with 2 notches "higher" on the needle.
If this helps considerably, lower the main jet 20% and raise the needles back to where they were, then try again.
3. Repeat step 3 if still too rich. I roadraced the CB500 I had at a 70 mainjet, open megaphones, idle screw at 1-1/4 turns and a K&N air filter inside a stock airbox. Timing was +2 degrees from stock, plugs were D8E. RPMs were above 10,000.
Life Is Full Of Challenges - And My Backyard Is Full Of SOHC4's

CB550 K0
CB750 K0, K2, K23 JDM, K45, K5
And the little ones z50r, xr50r, st90


750k5 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=114817.0

Offline Scott S

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Re: '76 550F and 550K....both run rich
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2014, 03:04:26 PM »
 Thanks, GoldArrow.

 And to make it perfectly clear: The 550F has the stock exhaust and air box. I'm running a UNI filter in the stock box.

'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650