Topic: Honda messed up here and there

[Deltarider]

It's not the first time I'm frustrated by inconsistencies in Honda's Parts Lists and Shop Manuals. I had the rear wheel out the other day to renew the rear tyre and drive chain (a simple Tsubaki QR 530 has served me over 18.000 kms and is still not worn). When I was to fastening things again, I became confused about the exact position of the cushion rubber and the washer at the end of the brake stopper arm. Do they go between the brake panel and the brake stopper arm or outside the stopper arm between the arm and the nut? Views in the various Parts List do not really help and pictures in Honda's Shop Manual 500-550 are inconsistent. For instance. on p. 74 (fig. 225) we see cushion rubber and washer in between the brake panel and the stopper arm, on p. 76 (fig. 236) however we see them between the stopper arm and the nut on the outside. Now, what is it or doesn't it matter? If there's a best posítion I'd like to know why.
Sometimes it is difficult to see where parts are supposed to be. Have a look at the other side where the rear sprocket is. O-ring part 24 (92x2) is missing on mine. I don't think it is really that important but where is it supposed to be? Is it between the rear sprocket and the sprocket side plate (2)?
Mine is a CB500K2, but it is identical with 550s.

[goldarrow]

If I recall correctly, how I do mine is brake arm to the brake hub, bolt through, rubber piece, washer, nut, and pin.  I believe the idea is not to have the brake arm wiggle once everything is tightened up. 

[SohRon]

Delta, this is a problem I've been trying to deal with for some time. I know you've read my build thread, so you know what a stickler for accuracy I am... but some of these things don't reconcile themselves very easily.

As to the brake stay (stopper arm) hardware, I was just as confused as you are. The pic on P. 72 seems to indicate that the rubber washer fits against the brake plate, while the pic on p. 76 shows it otherwise, with the stay against the brake plate. That same photo is repeated on P. 16, fig. 35. And if you look on P. 17 fig. 38, you see the set-up from a slightly different angle; it, too, shows the stay against the plate, with the rubber cushion on the outside between the stay and 18mm washer... so two different photos in the manual show it this way opposed to only one of the other...

The Owners manual shows yet another pic from a different bike, again showing the arm against the plate, then the cushion and washer. Note, too, that the nut is kept in place using an "R" pin rather than a cotter pin...




I finally found some shots of a low-mileage, unmolested CB550 and it, too indicates that the stay should be on the inside, with the cushion and washer on the outside. That's four different references showing it this way, so that's how I assembled it on my bike. I figure four-to-one odds are pretty good to suggest that's how Honda really did it.

I had the same frustrations when it came to the brake lever adjuster bolt. P. 76 fig. 235 clearly shows the bolt inserted from the top, and includes an inset to emphasize the fact. However, the Owner's Manual and just about every stock CB500 and 550 I've seen have the bolt inserted from beneath, with the head of the bolt resting against the lever.




I figure in this case, since Honda shows it both ways, it doesn't matter; so I chose to insert the bolt from the top to give myself a little more adjustment room.

The 92mm O-ring fits down around the retainer, and the side plate covers it. I believe it's meant to keep moisture from getting into the retainer threads.

Hope this helps, from a fellow detail freak! 

[brewsky]

I know what you mean.

And not just on the sohc4's ......

[dave500]

use your head,obviously the brake lever is best resting on the bolt head as itll wear less of a gouge than the pointier bolt thread end?as for the brake torque or stay arm bolt use your head aswell?#$%*?if you cant figure out dumb mistakes/typos and printing errors your an idiot!

[Deltarider]

as for the brake torque or stay arm bolt use your head aswell?#$%*?if you cant figure out dumb mistakes/typos and printing errors your an idiot!

Thanks for the compliment. My head obviously is not as big as yours . Printing errors, printing errors?! In a photo objects change place because of printing errors?! Mysterious kinetic forces for sure that shed a new light on the laws of physics.
In almost every manual I pick up (and I have quite a few) it is different than the one I had picked up before. Now please tell us what it should be, Great Spirit from down under. Enlighten us.

[Oldtech]

Brake stay on first and rubber cushion to the outside of the brake stay every time on every Honda. Speaking of mistakes, check out any early Honda service manual for the CB450 twin. The photo that shows the bearing set plate for the shift drum is reversed. Install it that way and the bike won't shift. I've bought a couple of rebuilt 450's over the years where the owner gave up on it when it wouldn't shift after being rebuilt. Pulled the clutch out, reversed the set plate, reassembled and motored off happily down the road.

[lucky]

as for the brake torque or stay arm bolt use your head aswell?#$%*?if you cant figure out dumb mistakes/typos and printing errors your an idiot!

Thanks for the compliment. My head obviously is not as big as yours . Printing errors, printing errors?! In a photo objects change place because of printing errors?! Mysterious kinetic forces for sure that shed a new light on the laws of physics.
In almost every manual I pick up (and I have quite a few) it is different than the one I had picked up before. Now please tell us what it should be, Great Spirit from down under. Enlighten us.

Dave 500 gets right to the point.
My kind of guy.

[SohRon]

Jeeze, Dave... who pissed in your potatoes?   

I don't believe either Delta or I are "idiots". We're just trying to do things the right way and, frankly, your commentary adds nothing to the discussion other than to point out what an inebriated ass you can be...

Here are the "typos" and "printing errors" you referred to

This



Vs this (and I apologize for the poor scan quality, but then you probably can't see the screen well enough to notice the difference, can you? Here's a hint: it's the one in the middle!)



And this



Vs this



All of these are published in the same manual. Without assuming, how do we know what to do here?

Here's a tip, Dave. Next time you feel an urge to post a comment, do it before not after you finish off the bottle/spliff/doojee or whatever it is that's your particular problem.

Mmmkay? 

[754]

 This is why its important, to....
 Lay out parts in a row, in the order of disassembly.

 Disclaimer, I know things go wrong, get kicked or moved accidently.
.but..its a step in the right direction..  A few times of. Correct re and re,  increases tendency to memorize procedure, ..leading to not needing the manual to perform a certain function.

[Stev-o]

This is why its important, to....

 Lay out parts in a row, in the order of disassembly.

I never assume that a 35 year old bike has been reassembled properly by the PO.

[754]

I get that, but at some point, some of us got to work on unmolested examples, and or had access to the factory lit.... And have trained ourselves to remember.
 It may not apply to this example, but, in general , its worth doing....

[Deltarider]

I never assume that a 35 year old bike has been reassembled properly by the PO.

Very wise.
I can't understand "Lucky's kind of guy's" reaction, the more since I value his contributions elsewhere.
I've encountered many 'puzzles' more in manuals and the like and Honda has really messed up here and there.
Orientation of front springs is one.
Amount of ATF fluid is two.
Carb data is three.
I just do an effort fo find out what was ment. Here's why.
I always recommend new owners of old bikes (like ours) to start with standard. Once you've got as close as possible to the original you can start to modify to your wishes... STEP BY STEP.
If people would do so (and buy genuine parts when they're still available) my rough estimation is half of the posts here are abundant.

[dave500]

hey chill out I don't need to be juiced up to get this forum moving!,some things are glaringly obvious,even to idiots?the Haynes and clymers also have a few errors,i had a Clymer Hyundai workshop book from the local library which had a major error in setting the timing belt and chain,the setting was correct but then the rechecking steps were wrong,youd have forever tried and never gotten the marks to re align even though it was set correctly,i ran a pencil through the wrong way and penciled in the right way,just to save an idiot from wrecking his motor.

[Deltarider]

some things are glaringly obvious

So you're the person that can explain why it should be this way and not that way. So far I've read no reasoning of you that explains. My question was valid. After all I rode the bike for years with parts in a position that you say is obviously wrong, or... So... ? Again, enlighten us and share your superior knowledge.

[754]

If the rubbers on one side,backing plate on other, I think has full support.
 If a standard washer was against the brake stay, it would have less support..Imo..

[TwoTired]

IMO  The brake casting is the softest part and needs protection against "worry" from the hard steel of the brake arm.  I put the rubber washer on that and then the stay arm, washer, nut, and cotter (or clip pin).  The stay arm is far easier to replace than the brake hub casting, and steel against steel wears longer than steel against aluminum.

[andrewk]

I never assume that a 35 year old bike has been reassembled properly by the PO.

Very wise.

First the hijack-  I see an opportunity to reconcile a conversation: When you and I were squabbling over setting floats and syncing carbs,  Steve-O's line of thought here was the exact reason I challenged your statements about leaving them alone, and your line of thought of setting things up completely stock is where my advice was leading.  So, not sure what the disagreement was, but here we seem to agree.  Interesting.

Now, back on track-  I've seen the incorrect photo before, and agree that the rubber should always go to the outside.  As Frank said, seems to have full support when the rubber is after the stay.  Is there anything on the subject in the service bulletins?

[lucky]

You can use metal or rubber as long as the fit up is not tightened down.
That is why there is a shoulder bolt with cotter key. The design of the bolt and its length does not allow you to tighten the brake reaction arm down solid. That way it self aligns and pulls straight.

I have never seen or heard of one of these brake castings breaking at that juncture.