Topic: My first bike -- 72 CB500: SO. MANY. QUESTIONS

[flex_mentallo]

Hello new friends,

Long time browser, first time poster. Excited to be here and EXTREMELY grateful to all the information contained here. I feel like I've gone from a 0 to a 20 (on a scale 100) on motorcycle know-how just based on the information everyone provides here. I'm fooling all of my friends into thinking I know what I'm talking about.
But anyway, onto business: I picked up a 72 cb500 just about a year ago off a friend of a friend. Thing hasn't run in 2-3 years but supposedly purred when it did without any major issues. After much deliberation, I got it home and was super excited just to get a wrench to it. Took off the fender, turn signals, and other flair as I'm not too interested in restoring it to it's original condition. I just want to get it running as simply as possible. Got the airbox out and started taking the carbs apart. I left them on the rack and soaked them in simple green overnight. Blew them out with a weak air compressor and waited for my carb kits to arrive. After they arrived I...got distracted for the season and the bike sat in my back yard over the winter. It had an all weather fitted cover on it about 97% percent of the time. It was never caught in a storm or anything but may have been drizzled on a bit. Eeek.
SO where I'm at now is being paranoid that some water got in where it shouldn't be and also remembering how to get these carbs back together. Not to mention spark plugs, oil change, getting rust out of my tank, etc. But that's for later. The carbs have accrued a spotty white residue (see photos) that seems to dry up the slides and I'm not sure if it's devastating for them or not. Please let me know what you think about it and if you have any literature on getting these things back together soundly. I would certainly appreciate it. I definitely have found some stuff on here already but I'm not afraid of redundancy as these are my first carbs and I want to learn everything, which is why I intentionally bought a non-running bike.
Okay, I'll shut up now and listen to you tell me I'm dumb for leaving my bike out over the winter.
Thanks in advance! Excited to hear from you!


when I pulled it out of the garage

where the carbs used to be (right where you might expect) This is how the bike sat all winter, with a cover over it all.

the residue

[cadman]

First big problem - Leaving the carbs off and with no air cleaner you can bet at lest one of the intake valves was open and moisture got into at least one cylinder.  What ensues is rust on the cylinder walls or rings or valves - not a good circumstance.

[calj737]

The white stuff on the engine and the carbs is oxidation. Simple Green is pretty acidic stuff to aluminum carb bodies if left too long. Some carb cleaner, and some rags might help return them to a clean, dull grey.

First order of business is to pre-soak the spark plug pockets with WD-40. While that's happening, check the oil for contamination of moisture or water. If none, you're lucky. Whether there's a cover on it or not, moisture builds under the covers and will infiltrate your engine. Once you get the plugs out, and while the carbs are off, spray some WD-40 or pour some 50/50 mix of Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) and Acetone into the cylinders. This will spoil your oil, but it is very protective to the internals should any rust have accrued. It will dissolve the rust so you can turn the crank over to insure the pistons rotate freely within the cylinders. This you will do by:

Remove the left side front cover, the round one concealing the stator. Support the stator with a bungee or something, and under that cover is a 14MM bolt. Use some leverage and rotate the crank, make sure the bike is in neutral. If it's stuck, do your best to move the gear up to 4th or 5th (may have to raise rear wheel and spin chain while shifting up) and then put the bike on the ground and push it. This "bumping" can free the engine, especially with the aide of the penetrating oil and removed spark plugs.

Be warned: while doing this, the oil may comm me squirting out of the plug holes and cover anything in front of them, so like a BB-gun, only point it at something you intend to shoot 

Of course, all this is based under the premise that the engine may have become stuck. If it rotates, then drain the ATF mix, change the oil, filter, and install new properly gapped plugs. Those rubber boots for your carbs may have become quite brittle and hard while sitting, and there are numerous tricks to refreshing them. Be certain the carbs are fully seated and properly snugged to avoid air leaks.

From the looks of it, I'd also start soaking the bee-jeezus out of the exhaust flanges with WD-40 to aide in removing the pipes. Same for the forks at the triple tree.

There's huge amount of threads with carb rebuild pics here too. And here's a parts fiche for your bike. Bookmark it so you can tell how and what pieces you need, or the listing for them. Not necessarily the place to buy them, but it's a great resource.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500-500-four-k1-1972-usa_model460/partslist/

Lots of really great members your way too. Welcome to the madness!

[calj737]

Another really important thing is to be dead certain there's no rust in the gas tank. If present, clean it fully before putting the carbs back on the bike. Rust from the tank will enter your recently cleaned up carbs, and that's the end of that.

Also, to properly and fully "clean" your carbs, you need to disassemble them further than a "dip and soak". The jets and passages and emulsion tubes must be spotlessly clean else you'll be removing the carbs repeatedly to do this.

Trying to save you some major headaches and cussing. Mis-steps like this, are why people lose interest in a project bike. The take the "easy" or "didn't know" route, can't get it to run right, then kick it and tarp it for years until they dump it. Hate to see you go that route.

There's lots to do on this bike as it's sat in neglect for a while before you owned it. But none of it is particularly difficult. But it does require some effort, lots of organization, and tons of patience. But you can do it. Don't cut corners, you'll thank yourself lots later. Perhaps even save your life while riding.

[rocs]

When is it going to be my turn for a freedom green metallic CB....

[Tews19]

Cal gave you great advice. Welcome to the site btw! If you plan to sell the tank and side covers I'm a drive away.

[Stev-o]

Okay, I'll shut up now and listen to you tell me I'm dumb for leaving my bike out over the winter.

You said it! First things first, will the motor kick over?

[Thamuz]

These bikes are simple.  get the manuals.  Listen to these guys.  I'm just still learning a lot too.

[flex_mentallo]

Thanks for all the advice everyone!
The good news is that yes it kicks over, the bad news is that I have like a dozen new questions:

Tews I'm slightly attached to the tank. If you have anything that might fit my frame, I'd entertain the idea of trading +/- some cash. The side-covers are all yours if you wanna come pick em up. One side is cracked and poorly re-glued. Got them like that but I don't want them. Bring me some Wisconsin root beer and work on my bike with me and they're all yours. Here's a picture:



CAL thanks for all the solid advice, but forgive me for not entirely following you about everything.
Spark plug pockets? Just the coil that the plugs are lodged in? Or where the spark plugs go on the engine block? Both?
How would I know if the oil is "contaminated"? Just visible water? Visible rust?
Spray ATF & Acetone into the cylinders directly? Right through the boots there?

I plan on replacing the exhaust anyway so I'm not too concerned with getting the rust off it all. Nearly cleaned out the gas tank of rust. Did a Prep & Etch last summer and I want to do a white vinegar bath now and see where it's at.

Cal, I think you're right and I was being lazy. I just really didn't want to go another season without getting to ride so I was trying to cut corners just to get it started, but that's silly. I took the carbs off the rack to clean everything in between as best I could, but I don't understand how to get it detached completely from the rack. Here's a photo where I'm stuck:

What do I unscrew? I've tried a few different places, but I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.


And in case anybody else wanders in here with another 72 CB500 looking for advice (like I did with so many other threads) here's the link I used for taking my carbs apart which was really helpful (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/ALLFX/846A0073-375A-40D9-879F-1A1D953E4299_zpsgzvdbn1k.jpg)

[calj737]

Spark plug pockets are the recesses where the plugs screw into the head. If an engine has sat for a while, it's likely that rust has occurred on the threads, and you can snap the plug off if you don't pre-treat it with WD.

To add the ATF, yup, pour it straight into those same holes. Understand at least of your cylinders are on the "up stroke" and not a great deal of fluid will actually pour into those cylinders. The overflow will come out the front end of the head and onto your shoes. Use some towels to catch it and mop it up. And I'm only suggesting a few ounces per cylinder. Just enough to re-wet and lube them.

Contaminated oil - yes, plug the dipstick plug on the right side, and look at it, smell it (really) and smear between your fingers. If it looks like, smells like, and lubes like oil, then it's good oil. You'll still need to change it after adding the ATF and what not, but before we try to turn over your engine, we want to know what, if anything, is going with the current oil. And there needs to be enough in there.

Oh, carb disassembly! Stop right now! Pictures, pictures, pictures! Take these for yourself. Get 4 Tupperware bins to hold the components of each carb separately, and numbered. Organization is critical here. These also some really great threads on here from guys with detailed pictures of how to properly disassemble the carbs. Do not pull the rod that the carb linkage rotates on. The rusty one that has the aluminum ears on either end.

Read the carb FAQ on the FAQ section for guidance on disassembly and rebuilding. And spend the time to clean them exquisitely and fully. You'll thank yourself later.

PS - the carb has internal "settings" that as you disassemble them, take notice of. These are the "jets", "needles" and "screws" that you'll read about. The size of the jets is stamped on the side of them, record it per carb, same for the clip position on the needles. Screws you can reset fully when you reassemble.

[flex_mentallo]

Thanks again cal, for being so patient and thorough with us new kids. Someone else has a cb500 thread recently and you were in there giving them thorough and patient advice as well. You're all saints.
I already have my carbs apart and organized in baggies. I'm gonna check out the FAQ section about getting them off the rack. Then I'll tackle the oil and spark plugs. See you soon...

[flex_mentallo]

I've decided to soda blast my carb bodies to try and get the white residue oxidation off. I tried carb cleaner and scotch brite pads and I was getting almost no results and I could hardly get into the passage ways and everything so it seemed like a waste. I have a weak air compressor in my basement that was good for blowing them dry but I'll probably just rent a 5 gallon one from home depot sometime next week. I feel like this will be the only way to get them back to the dull grey.

I bought everything I needed to change the oil today. Got down there to pull the plug and saw this:

The exhaust is run way too close to the bike so I can't even get the socket onto the plug to drain the oil. What villainy is this?!?
I planned on replacing the exhaust system anyway before taking it on the road, so it needs to come off. My question is, is leaving the exhaust off as stupid as leaving the carbs off? Is that going to just welcome more moisture into my engine?

Couple sides notes: thanks to luck and the WD-40, the engine is still kicking over despite several rainstorms.
This is the current status of my 12mm oil filter center bolt (12mm is small right?):

It's pretty much stripped and stuck.
Please send all imaginary spirit waves my way.

[flex_mentallo]

Oh I did pull the dipstick and the oil well was pretty dried up but some clear oil on the dipstick. Very smooth, smelled cleaned. (I haven't smelled a lot of oil). I couldn't get focus on a good picture for it. Sorry,

[flex_mentallo]

So perhaps, I'm taking advantage of you all. Instead of using my head to problem solve and exercise critical thinking, I just complain to you and ask what to do.
I turned my brain on and loosened the exhaust. I pushed it over just a tiny bit and I was able to get a 17mm socket in there. Turning, turning, turning, then some brown liquid started pouring out.

Pretty clear, right? Luckily I had a pan just for such liquid. Didn't take long but it all came out. Still can't get to the filter. Stay tuned.

[Deltarider]

Honda shouldn't have designed such a small bolt. You'll find aftermarket bolts now with a 17mm head. Much better. For now: after some penetrating oil, tap the bolt and hopefully you can free it. If not, you or someone can weld a lever on it or a bigger nut. That's what I did years ago.
BTW, that oil looks like new.

[calj737]

Flex - that oil filter bolt is a constant problem for many new owners. POs perpetually over tighten these and they gall the aluminum. Two options:

1. Use some vise grips and grab the head really tightly, and then untwist. You may benefit from some heat applied directly to the face of that bolt to get it to loosen. If that doesn't work, grab the actual lip of the flange, not the rounded off head, and try the same trick.

2. If all else fails, use a Dremel and cut a slot in the nut, and use a large screw driver to unscrew the nut.

[Bankerdanny]

The filter housing bolt was clearly spec'd by someone who was (a) possessed by the devil or (b) mentally deficient or (c) both. Either way a stuck bolt is practically a right of passage for SOHC4's and early GoldWings.

On my first 550 I got mine off using a small cold chisel and a BFH (big f***ing hammer). Just apply the chisel to the flanged part of the bolt. It will dig in and eventually start to spin it. Exersize a little care and all you will need to replace is the bolt, which is readily available with the larger size head on eBay.

It only took about 20 minutes to get off.

[flex_mentallo]

So I got a 6 gallon air compressor (2.6 SCFM @ 90psi) from a friend to blast my carbs free of this oxidation residue. I know it's small but it's all I could get my hands on for free.
Should I soak the carb bodies before blasting them to loosen the residue or will that just make the baking soda stick? I don't plan on painting them at all, do I still need to soak the carbs in something acidic afterwards?

[calj737]

No need to presoak them before blasting. Absolutely mandatory to soak them after. And re-clean passages very carefully.

[bender01]

When is it going to be my turn for a freedom green metallic CB....

Me too! ive even got a set of pipes laying around!

[flex_mentallo]

I blasted my carbs late this afternoon and it took care of the oxidation problem. It didn't make them shine like a lot of other pictures I've seen but I would chock that up to the lack of power from my compressor. I certainly accomplished what I was trying to do. I blew them free of soda residue then soaked them in warm tap water for ~15 minutes and then blew them dry and put them away.
Hopefully my socket bolt extractor tool will come in tomorrow and I'll spray some ATF/acetone mix into the cylinders then drain that back out, change the filter and the oil, then if I'm feeling spunky, get to the spark plugs. I thought I'd need to go buy a spark plug wrench but was pleasantly surprised when I found one in my socket wrench set AND one in my honda tool kit that came with the bike. I'm just nervous about breaking off the spark plug heads. Stay tuned

[calj737]

You can polish the bodies up a little bit more with some aluminum metal polish and elbow grease.

As for the plugs, if your engine is free of the frame, use a torch and heat the plug after letting it soak. This can help loosen any rust holding the plug into the threads. Just use some care with the socket, a 6 point is best, and apply pressure, don't try and turn it free at once.