Author Topic: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?  (Read 2958 times)

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smithrelo

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Probably should be "dumb" girl on above subject line!!

Just a quick question:  How do I check float bowls for contaminated gas/debris?

I've downloaded and printed tintin 550 manual-but cannot figure out if I can simply take top screws off carbs and look inside or is there a way to drain the float bowls from below them? 

I know it is a dumb question, but this is my first attempt to track down a problem myself.  Manual doesn't say much on simple look-see things.  It has lots of technical stuff, but I'm wanting basic instructions on cleaning float bowls out and purgin carbs of contaminated gas. 

Linda

douglascoolgrey

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2005, 06:05:49 PM »
There should be a brass screw (plug, actually) at the bottom of each float bowl. After you've turned off the petcock, you can drain gas from the float bowl by unscrewing each these.

Once you've drained the gas from the float bowls, you can unscrew the bottom of the float bowls to reveal the jets and float itself. You may want to order a set of float bowl gaskets before you attempt this, as you'll likely have to replace.

You're looking for anything that might prevent the float from seating correctly or anything that might be clogging either of the jets. Buy a can of compressed air and blow everything clean while you're in there. Carb cleaner spray helps as well.

If you start taking things apart, pay careful attention to the order and orientation in which you removed them. The parts are small and the diagram confusing.

Here's a hint... if your fuel problem began after dropping or laying the bike down, start with the carb on the side you dropped the bike. If your fuel problem began after letting the bike sit for a while on the side stand, start with the carb on the downhill side.

I check carbs one at a time, often stopping to re-attach the tank and restart the bike between each carb.

Offline Tim.

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2005, 06:40:29 PM »
I started writing the long-winded response below and then read your question again.  To answer simply, just unscrew the bowls from the carbs using a stubby screwdriver.  Drain them first as described in the earlier post.  There's nothing attached to the bowls, so they just pop right off.

Putting them back on, you'll note some resistance.  They push up against a 'leaf-spring' type deal that is sitting hanging from a groove in your main jet.  This keeps the main jet pressed up into the carb body.  They aren't threaded in.  Just shoved in with an o-ring.  If this leaf-spring deal is missing, replace it.  You don't want your main jet vibrating out of it's little hole.

Now, the long-winded response I began writing.  Didn't have the heart to erase it all:

If you want to get serious about working on your carbs, you should build a stand to suspend your (or another) gas tank away from the bike.  Then attach longer fuel lines to this tank.  This allows you to work on the carbs (especially synching them) without the tank in the way.  Just don't forget and launch into 1st gear for a test ride ;)

The bowls for the carbs come off easy.  Stubby screwdriver is all you need.  You don't really need to drain them, as long as you're careful in removing them.  Keep them level so they don't spill.  Keep some rags handy for errant fuel.

Check the bowls for gunk.  If there's gunk (there will be) clean it out.

Raise and lower the floats with your finger.  Free movement?  They should be LOOSE.  No resistance at all.

To measure the height, you need to raise the float to just the point where it touches the little pin that stops the flow of fuel into the bowl.  It's just like a toilet.  When the float 'floats' in the fuel to a certain height, it shuts off the flow of fuel into the bowl.  So, as your bike uses fuel at varying rates, the float will be at different heights in the bowl.  At idle, the floats will rise to the top and shut off fuel to the carbs until the fuel in the bowls is depleted enough that the float lowers and open the valve.

So, when the float is at that point of just touching the little pin, you measure the 'height' as shown in the manual.  Just get a ruler and eyeball it for the moment.
Roule comme dans les années 70...   Roll as in the Seventies...

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 06:50:35 PM »
When I was considering an aux. gas tank, some folks suggested just installing longer lines to my bike tank and setting it on something away from the bike. I was pretty convinced I would knock the thing over, or it would get in the way moving about the bike, I decided to try and make one. It took two tries to find the right opoxy (it was JB Weld by the way), but made one out of a coolant overflow tank and a couple of plastic fittings. Used a spade bit to bore the holes, mixed the opoxy and generously slathered it around the holes and sort of screwed the fittings in until snug. Let it sit 24 hours and it's worked like a charm for me. I can hang it overhead from the rafters or the handle bars.. out of the way of clumzy me.

http://home.att.net/~bobwessner/wsb/media/AuxilFuelTank.jpg
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Offline Tim.

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2005, 07:24:49 PM »
I think I'll rig something up like that in a backpack, so I can tune the carbs while riding ;)  See that flaming object skidding across the highway?  That'll be me!
Roule comme dans les années 70...   Roll as in the Seventies...

Offline Harry

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2005, 12:03:05 AM »
Some of the stuff in this post has now been FAQ´d!
Harry Teicher, member #3,  Denmark....no, NOT the capital of Sweden.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2005, 01:34:08 AM »
Its not a dumb question at all. The genuine Honda manuals were written to be used by workshop mechanics and assume a reasonable mechanical knowledge, thats where having the genuine, Clymer and Haynes as a set can be usefull. Then again you can always ask here nobody extracts too much mickey!!!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Harry

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2005, 02:59:47 AM »

Hey Bryan - good to see #36 again, even if it is only in the from of electrons. Have you started rebuilding?
Harry Teicher, member #3,  Denmark....no, NOT the capital of Sweden.

Offline mwvachon

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2005, 01:41:57 PM »
Yet another method I've used:

1. Put bike on center stand (or similarly prop bike up as straight as possible)
2. Turn off gas.
3. Remove drain screw from 1 carb carefully catching any gas that comes out.
4. Locate a length of clear plastic hose (1 ft is enough) about the same diameter (or a bit larger) than the drain screw.
5. Insert the hose into the drain screw opening and hold opposite end of hose above the bowl level.
6. Turn the gas back on.
7. You can now see the exact level of fuel in the bowl.
8. Turn off gas.
9. Properly drain off gas in tube/bowl and repeat 2 - 9 for each!

If the level appears too low/high, you will have to remove the fuel bowl of the offending carb and adjust the tab that is attached to the float valve to correct. Retest as required. Desired level is at about 3/4 of the bowl volume. Too little and your bike will sputter at highway speeds, and too much - well, you know...

Regards,
Mike V.
M.W.Vachon
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1999 Valkyrie I/S
1971 CB750-K1 (Candy Gold)
1971 CB750-K1 (Candy Red)
Project link: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=108498.0]
1965 Honda S90
1976 GL1000
1975 CB400F

smithrelo

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2005, 05:32:33 PM »
Mike V- not that far along yet.

Tintin- warn me to stay away from wherever you are riding with this "flaming backpack" thing!

Douglas, please see photos of what came out when I removed brass screw:

To Everyone:

I took off tank, had it acid washed and am now draining the floats via the brass screw on the bottom:  Note-tank is off bike.
see photos below

first photo is of #1 carb-these black particles are idential to what was in the one cup of gas that "squirted" out overnight when I left petcock open.  There are a couple of rust fragments but...the black things are "carbon"?? that is: they "disappear" when I rub them against the container I drained float into.  They are not metal fragments.


Second photo is of #2 carb-same issue - even MORE debris. Again couple of rust fragments but definitely carbon type debris.

Need some opinions:  Since I spent the entire day hunting for "fuel line elbows and clamps" and came up empty handed, I do not want to do further work on carbs without gasket replacements. 

Do you think with clean gas, clean tank, and clean carb float chambers, that if I put it back together and I have no further problems, it was just junk in the tank?  (I can probably answer that one myself!)

OR
is there something more sinister to watch out for now that we've seen the debris going into the carbs??

Am I right to assume that particles as big as these "could" have caused dying, coughing, refusing to run problem of last week?

Thanks for exact instructions on "simple" look-see actions.  I'm such a novice, I need real basic instructions.

Linda

smithrelo

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Re: Dumb Girl Question: debris in floats w/photos
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2005, 08:24:18 PM »
See above post with photos - need your opinions/advice

Linda

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another dumb question from Girl: How to check float bowls?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 04:54:23 AM »
As I said in a previous post, any bits in the carb bowl larger than .4mm (.018 inch) will not fit through the idle or slow jet orifice and block it.  This will starve the cylinder affected for fuel at the low throttle settings.  The main jet is 1mm (about .040 inch).  So, particles bigger than that will block the main jet.  And then, no gas will get to the cylinder at any throttle setting.

Sometimes the inside the fuel lines will deteriorate and pieces will break off.  Examine the fuel lines and see if you can llightly scrape the inside of the hose.  If pieces come out that look like what you found in the carb bowl drainage, then you've learned the source, and you need to replace the fuel tubing.

Unless your are eager to dismantle the carbs and examine the jets.  There is a couple things that may relieve you of that task.  Just like peas will sometime stick in the end of a drinking straw and sometimes they fall off when you stop sucking, so too, can jets sometime clear themselves when the carbs stop sucking fuel.    Since you have found significant particles in the carb bowl, it is best to get as much of that stuff out as you can.  The auto parts store sells aerosol carb cleaner and they come with a tube you can insert in the spray nozzle.  Fit this nozzle into the carb bowl drain hose and give it a few shots to flush out what you can.  Once it flushes clean, there is nothing to lose but to put the bike back together, feed the carbs clean fuel and flush the carbs with gas from the tank out the carb drain holes until you get nothing but clean fuel out those drains.  If the jets were/are loosely plugged, this might do the trick and your carb woes are cured.  But, in any case you've nothing to lose now by try to run it.  Charge the battery up good, turn off the headlight and start it up.  Check the exhaust head pipes for even heat by flash touching each pipe. You won't get burned if you do it quick enough.  If some pipes are cooler than others, then there are still some jets plugged up.  Sometimes engine vibration eventually allows them to clear.  Sometimes, soft debris can be sucked through the jets, and clear them, by creating a very strong vacuum in the carb bore.  This is done by reving the bike to high RPM, rapidly closing the throttle and choke at the same time.  Then open the choke again after the RPMs have fallen. With practice, you can get several cycles of doing this without stalling the engine completely.  If this works, there will be a change in engine sound.  And, then the exhaust headers will all be evenly hot.  Set your idle and go ride.  If it doesn't work, you'll have to remove the carb bowls for the cylinders that have cold pipes.  And, clean the jets more vigorously.  If the o-rings inside are old and brittle, you'll want a fresh set on hand for reassembly to avoid leaks and other odd run behavior.   If you need it, I can try to describe how to fit the main jet, spring clip, and fuel bowl on at the same time, with the carbs still on the bike.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.