Author Topic: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?  (Read 5539 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2014, 04:46:07 PM »
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2014, 04:52:51 PM »
Those things are totally 'steampunk'.  I think I see some good motorcycle parts there   ;D

+1  Was going to say rust punk, but that would be offensive.  What's next wood thug?  Hey is that some iron wood, or yellow birch you got there?

Offline matchstikman

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2014, 05:07:59 PM »
Maybe some you prefer to keep sending money to the Ragheads in the Middle East like the Saudis...
While I certainly respect your right to an individual opinion, or perspective, I have zero tolerance for racial hatred or bigotry. This epitaph has no place being uttered in a public forum, and you really need to remove this portion of your post.

Total lack of respect on your part, srust.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2014, 01:35:17 AM »
for the original poster....if  you are looking for performance as defined by what you sense in your seat..HP/torque, then the octane rating of ethanol based 'regular' fuel is identical to what is required by your engine....ergo..all things else being equal, you wouldn't know one type of fuel from another.  More performance starts first with more air, then match the fuel to get the ratio necessary.
I'm more concerned with miles/gallon and less moisture in my tank.

You might get 3% less fuel economy which works out to around 1.2 miles per gallon.  Little performance difference as stated by Muckinfuss.  If you run the bike regularly moisture should not be an issue.  If you worry about it just drain your tank a few times a year to get any small amount of water out.....if you store it just drain the tank and fog it.

Seems a small price to pay for more energy independence and keeping the money here at home instead of in Riyadh.
You see nothing wrong with using vast tracts of land to grow corn instead of real nutritional food..?  No matter what spin you put on it, growing food for fuel is about the stupidest idea on the planet, especially when you look at the fact that ethanol can be made from virtually anything including the grass clippings from your back yard. You sound like an advocate of the corn/ethanol industry, which really surprises me Steve, ethanol is a #$%* fuel substitute and creates more problems than it solves until vehicles are purpose built to run on alcohol and even then problems will exist, just ask the drag racing community that use alcohol fuels, they flush the system completely out after every race meeting to stop corrosion. You need to burn 1.4L of ethanol to achieve the same amount of energy as burning 1L of pure petrol, far more than the 3% you quoted, for example, e85 has 33% less energy than petrol and 10% inefficiencies are reported constantly for 10% ethanol blends so i'm not sure where you are getting your facts, as more ethanol is added the efficiency goes way down, not to mention its subsidized to hell. Ethanol creates almost exactly the same amount of CO2 as fuel when the efficiency of the fuel is taken into consideration, so its not as clean and green as most will have you believe, the claims are made due to the corn absorbing CO2 as it grows which allows them to give it a more neutral rating as the CO2 is offset on the farm, juggling figures as usual. Corn is also one of the lest efficient ways of making ethanol,  what ever lobby that hounds your governments for market availability of corn is doing a great job but it will disappear just as quick as it started..  ::)  Moisture will ALWAYS be an issue with ethanol, as soon as you have alcohol in your fuel it is absorbing moisture and that moisture condensates and sits on the top of the inside of the tank and its not too hard to work out what happens then, to say otherwise is bullsh1t,  not to mention what it eventually does to all the rubber parts in its way and the washing effect it has on cylinder walls leading to faster wearing engines,  Car manufacturers have said they will refuse to honor warranties on cars using E15 so thats got to tell you something you would think...


     As someone who grew up on a farm and has direct connections to the midwest farm economy my whole life I don't feel the least bit guilty about it.  I don't think you really know anything about the farm economy here.  Do you think they can just stop growing corn and soybeans to grow "real nutritional food".  The climate, soil, harvesting, marketing, storage, and transport infrastructure is set up for these crops.  They are the most economically viable crops to grow here on the vast scale required....that's why they call it The Corn Belt.  When I was a kid we grew corn and soybeans....40 years later we still grow....you guessed it... corn and soybeans. ;D  The farmers will grow what gives the best return for their effort and investment.  The market is there for the product...it has to be grown somewhere...it grows best here...makes sense to me.  As stated previously, maybe you did not read it, there is no shortage of corn products for the food industry.  Farmers are increasing their yields to compensate. The majority of the corn crop is still used for livestock feed with about 22-25% used for ethanol production.   Corn ethanol production is capped by law at 15 billion gallons as that level is enough for current usage.     
     There is no global shortage of food.  The problem is transportation, storage, unequal distribution, and political and economic  factors.  Growing more "real nutritional food" in the Midwest will not solve those issues.
     To answer some of your other points.  Sure corn is not the most efficient crop for ethanol...probably sugar cane is but we can't grow sugar cane here so we use what grows best here....corn.  Cellulosic feedstock may eventually replace corn to some degree but the technology is still being developed.   Advocate for the ethanol industry...no, just an advocate for the midwest farm economy like I said earlier.  I suppose I could throw it back at you and say you sound like an advocate for Big Oil.  All the controversial issues associated with ethanol pale in comparison to the issues with oil production.  As stated earlier : How much blood and treasure is spent to keep the oil spigot flowing in that part of the world.  How many of our service personnel ever died for ethanol?  Do you ever factor in that cost?  What about the environmental cost of oil production......Ixtoc 1, Bluewater Horizon, Exxon Valdez, Amoco Cadiz, Torrey Canyon, Lac-Magantic Quebec, .....etc.  And now fracking...who knows what that may lead to.  The  worry about the effect of alcohol on moisture, rubber, drag racing, and cylinder walls doesn't seem all that important.
    The 3% figure comes from fuel efficiency standards published by the EPA and is for E10 which is what is available here.   I could care less what drag racers do as we don't run our cars at WOT in 1/4 mile increments on pure alcohol.
    I am going to the farm in late September for the weekend so I will check with Tom about growing something more edible next year.  Maybe he will let me drive the tractor...been a long time.;D
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 02:16:00 AM by srust58 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2014, 03:41:27 AM »
Nice of you to assume that i would be for big oil Steve, then go off an a tangent about it  :o, big oil can go fcuk itself for all i care, i'm all for renewables and for those that don't get that will be left behind, ethanol is NOT part of that plan and it will disappear, mark my words.
When you say "viable" you mean "subsidize" right..? Its not economical at all thats why it is subsidized, You do know sugar cane is a grass.? and it grows in very poor soil, anyway they are both water intensive crops that are a political football, not an alternative to oil and gas . If you think we have no food shortages world wide you really need to get out more often, i can't really believe you even suggested that, the world population is going berserk, its more than doubled since the 1950's and well on the way to even more ridiculous totals, food and fresh water are massive problems and to deny that is crazy, i read recently the "growth policies of  western governments will hit a wall very soon, maybe even in our life times because they have no plan to deal with the massive population boom,and the massive problems thats creating, it just can't keep going at the rate it is, we won't be fighting over oil, we'll be fighting over fresh water. Anyway, the discussion was about ethanol and i'll stick with what i know and thats that ethanol is not an alternative fuel, its stupid to grow food for fuel, neither does it surprise me that our backward,  money ahead of people at all costs governments will do anything to support these industries, even if they are a dying breed. Look outside the US Steve, the technology is already there to make ethanol and other fuels from lots of different sources but it robs someone else of profit and that someone else can lobby governments, funny like that...
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Offline Muckinfuss

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2014, 09:17:47 AM »
I too live in the corn belt.  In the US, the closest remnant of free enterprise left is the dirt farm economy.  Follow the money.  Why on earth anyone would plant tomatoes in 200 acre plots when they can make three times the money with soybean or corn??  Just as automation has changed manufacturing in the past 45 years, it's nothing compared to big ag.  I understand your rage at the evil ethanol, I just don't care. Nor do most people.  Most everyone I know wants to fill up their gas tank for under $3.50 a gallon and if it comes from chicken legs by throwing the rest of the bird in the trash, so be it.  There really are bigger issues in this world...such as distributing the 1000's of tons of edible food that actually rots both in the fields and in storage here in the US yearly.

Sometimes you have to agree to disagree and go about your business.
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Offline buffalogt750

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2014, 12:09:21 PM »
Proponents of ethanol and the increased "energy independence" never seem to mention the enormous amount of diesel fuel consumed by farm equipment, trucks, trains, ships, or whatever other equipment is required to get ethanol to market. Gasoline is distributed nation wide by pipelines. There are no ethanol pipelines, it all has to be transported by fuel burning equipment, be it truck, train or whatever.
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Offline 750cafe

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2014, 12:32:56 PM »
Retro - the more you post, the more I find myself in agreement with you... Scary for me...

Can't say as I find any fault of flaw at all in your logic, and I know of not a single person in the US that is for ethanol. It sukks in our motors, our fuel economy is Sh!t, it's harmful to fuel lines, tanks, and exhausts. Not to mentio all the intertwined agri-Econ problems you cited.

Yep, our EPA has yet again struck with re regulation crap that the science wholly refutes, not to mention the economics of it. And the humane issues of global food prices.

Count me in on the revo against Ethanol!
Now, where's my beer???

Not only does the cost of food go up 30% or more, it absolutely destroys our fuel systems by degrading the carb rubber parts along with the fuel lines.  >:(
But, if I were a farmer, I would happily accept the FREE/EXTRA $3.00 per bushel of corn to NOT produce edible corn. Screw everyone else! (At least that is what THEY think/do)
And the 10% DECREASE in fuel mileage, they can blame on those nasty oil companies and car makers.

The lemming of this world actually believe the propaganda that this is good for us that they are told on the [government run/censured] news stations.  ::)

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Offline Muckinfuss

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2014, 05:41:06 PM »
Ok, I'll bite......if all that corn you believe is being made into ethanol were actually being made into corn flakes, tortillas, Green Giant frozen corn, corn sweetener (the rest is feed after the syrup is extracted) etc...........how much more corn would you eat?  A ton.  Two?  That's per year per person.  And it would all still be moved about by trucks and trains.....burning diesel.....at least the same amount.  And all of these hypothetical arguments you guys are throwing out ignore the fact that in this country, we throw food away....by the ton each day.  And you think it's economically viable to create more? For who?  If these farmers weren't making enough money...they leave the land fallow and get a job just like the rest of us, if they can find one.   

Now, the one thing that no one has mentioned......the Oil companies in the US are lobbying the gov to lift all export prohibitions on crude oil....since we are pumping so much more than we need now.  Why would they want to do that you ask....>  The more alcohol they can blend in, the more crude they can divert to countries that pay higher prices.  That's easier than trying to raise pump prices in this country and yields the same or higher profits.  You can hug trees all you want....it will always be about the money, and that's not any different than it's ever been.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2014, 06:16:07 PM »
   You can hug trees all you want....it will always be about the money, and that's not any different than it's ever been.

Typical right wing response..... ::)  How about common sense, if there's more oil than you need then drop the fcuking price as most other markets do, why should the oil industry be any different. You will also find, after comprehensive reports on the negative effects of corn syrup {diabetes etc etc}, that it will be slowly phased out of the food system, its barely used in Australia and when it is its in imported goods like coke and pepsi and pepsi is phasing it out and i imagine coke will do as well as they are rapidly losing market share, so what happens then, it will kill off half of the current corn industry. Propping up industries with subsidies is stupid and counter productive, when are people going to learn. The greed approach you so obviously advocate for will not last for ever, its completely unsustainable and will change as its always done throughout history, next time, probably for good....
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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2014, 06:21:49 PM »
I watched the movie Jack Reacher not long ago and the old ugly #$%* at the end said a very poignant thing when asked how much is enough he replied, enough? it's not about enough, we take what can be taken. This is the only ethic corporations consider and failing the destruction of the planet I can't see it ever changing. I'm a bit of a doom n gloom merchant though.

Offline matchstikman

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2014, 09:42:47 PM »
I watched the movie Jack Reacher not long ago and the old ugly #$%* at the end said a very poignant thing when asked how much is enough he replied, enough? it's not about enough, we take what can be taken. This is the only ethic corporations consider and failing the destruction of the planet I can't see it ever changing. I'm a bit of a doom n gloom merchant though.
look up "money speech from the network" on youtube. The Network, 1976 film. It lays it all out.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2014, 09:31:17 PM »
Nice of you to assume that i would be for big oil Steve, then go off an a tangent about it  :o, big oil can go fcuk itself for all i care, i'm all for renewables and for those that don't get that will be left behind, ethanol is NOT part of that plan and it will disappear, mark my words.
When you say "viable" you mean "subsidize" right..? Its not economical at all thats why it is subsidized, You do know sugar cane is a grass.? and it grows in very poor soil, anyway they are both water intensive crops that are a political football, not an alternative to oil and gas . If you think we have no food shortages world wide you really need to get out more often, i can't really believe you even suggested that, the world population is going berserk, its more than doubled since the 1950's and well on the way to even more ridiculous totals, food and fresh water are massive problems and to deny that is crazy, i read recently the "growth policies of  western governments will hit a wall very soon, maybe even in our life times because they have no plan to deal with the massive population boom,and the massive problems thats creating, it just can't keep going at the rate it is, we won't be fighting over oil, we'll be fighting over fresh water. Anyway, the discussion was about ethanol and i'll stick with what i know and thats that ethanol is not an alternative fuel, its stupid to grow food for fuel, neither does it surprise me that our backward,  money ahead of people at all costs governments will do anything to support these industries, even if they are a dying breed. Look outside the US Steve, the technology is already there to make ethanol and other fuels from lots of different sources but it robs someone else of profit and that someone else can lobby governments, funny like that...

My comment about "no global food shortage" was paraphrased from a UN report on food and hunger.  What the report said was current food production is enough to feed everyone but the problem is getting the food to where it is needed when it is needed.  I don't just make stuff up....I did look for a source to back up what I said.  There is an article in the business section of the local paper today about 100 million bushels of grain from last years crop still sitting in storage and they are having a hard time getting it to market as the oil trains from the Bakken in North Dakota are causing big delays. 

Anyway that's all for me for a bit.  Leaving on a little wilderness adventure on Friday.  I will be burning wood for the next 10 days.....how's that for some carbon release? ;D  To make up for it our only motive power will be arms and legs. ;)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:40:24 PM by srust58 »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2014, 01:47:06 AM »
Quote
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2014, 03:10:25 PM »
I think that if ethanol is a net gain or loss on the effects of air pollution is a legitimate topic of debate. A debate I don't have the answer to. I think it's fair to question if we should be growing crops for fuel. It seems to be about a wash as far as air quality goes, but condidering all of the petro based fertilizers and pesticides that run off into our watersheds, it surely seems there has got to be a better way. I understand the main reason is energy independence. It props up an infrastructure that could be useful to have strategically if something dire happened to effect the global oil supply. It seems to me that we might be better off investing the time and money in wind, solar and mass transit, among other things.

As far as 10% ethanol in our gas #$%*ing your #$%* up...I'm just not buying it. I think it's mostly people complaining about nothing. 10% E has been mandated here in St. Louis since 1999 and has been in use long before that. In my entire life (I'm 39), I have never purchased anything other than 10% E gas (at least locally) and have never had issues with it. In carbureted cars ('74 Beetle, '78 Camaro, '81 Buick), in fuel injected cars (my Mazda I purchased new in 2001 and still my daily driver), or in anything else. I've had the same cheap ass push mower with a Briggs & Stratton for eight years without issue. I have a two gallon gas can that I fill in the spring and it's just about empty by fall. It sits there all summer without problem and we have very humid summers in St. Louis. On my CB750, I replaced the rock hard original 36yr old fuel lines with new OEM Honda line from the dealership and they are still supple as Kate Upton's tits. I fill the tank if it will sit for extended periods like winter and it fires right up and runs fine on months old gas. I think any "noticeable" difference in performance is likley in the operator's head and I think driving out of the way to buy ethonal free gas is a waste of time, money, and gas.

I think we should agree as a group that ethanol threads should be treated the same way oil threads are treated. They should be shunned.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:33:30 PM by JeffSTL »

Offline calj737

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2014, 03:29:53 PM »
I applaud your position Jeff, yet, both the EPA and auto manufacturers have both acknowledged that ethanol present in internal combustion engines does cause damage to vehicles not designed to run it.

On a slightly different topic, my outboard motor (Mercury 2007 models) had factory recalls due to ethanol fuel causing fuel line deformation and eventual fires. So I'm not convinced that it's harmless despite personally not having been victim of it's reported damage.

I have no evidence to the performance or mileage effects as I've always used a fuel additive regardless of E-based or not.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2014, 03:59:32 PM »
I applaud your position Jeff, yet, both the EPA and auto manufacturers have both acknowledged that ethanol present in internal combustion engines does cause damage to vehicles not designed to run it.

On a slightly different topic, my outboard motor (Mercury 2007 models) had factory recalls due to ethanol fuel causing fuel line deformation and eventual fires. So I'm not convinced that it's harmless despite personally not having been victim of it's reported damage.


The reason the fuel in your gas can doesn't attract moisture is because the can doesn't have a breather, unlike all cars, bikes and boats.
I've said it before, ethanol is not for use in boats in Australia, due to our climate we have the largest amount of boat ownership per capita in the world ,ETHANOL ABSORBS MOISTURE" which creates plenty of problem in boat engines, there is irrefutable proof that this happens, and there are warnings on our gas pumps, ethanol is water soluble unlike straight Gasoline, Ethanol is also corrosive and attacks rubber and plastic parts, I have had my bloody lawn mower repaired that many times due to the damage done to the plastic carb on it that i'll NEVER use ethanol blends in anything i own again, unless its a modern car designed for ethanol use, {and i'll still use a top end lubricant} I would love anyone that disagrees with this to ask any alcohol drag racer why they completely flush the alcohol out of their engines and fuel lines after racing...?

Apart from that I agree with everything else Jeff says... ;D
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2014, 04:51:17 AM »
Quote
I think it's mostly people complaining about nothing.
And I think you're right. Not that long ago I wrestled myself through a pages long essay (unfortunately it's in German) and became convinced that in normal, everyday use, consumers don't need to be afraid. On the contrary. In every tank you'll have some (very little) water. The alcohol actually binds it and within limits your engine can cope perfectly well with it, whereas with conventional gaz water remains at the bottom of your tank.
Around here in the boating world there's more concern about the growth of bacteria in diesel. It is a nasty problem and it's caused by... water. Now there are all kinds of expensive additives on the market to cure this, but guess what works equally well: just half a liter of methylated spirit (= alcohol) in a 100 liter tank.
Now to old motorcycles. It's not the water I'm afraid of (see above). For the rest I just do not have enough data or seen enough studies to come to a good conclusion. Therefor I just stick to the gasoline I favour for other reasons: BP Ultimate 98. It's supposed not to have ethanol or < 0,5 % at the utmost which is neglectable.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 06:20:15 AM by Deltarider »
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Re: How much will ethynol free fuel improve performance?
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2014, 10:36:41 AM »
The ethanol problem is the same as so much today, significant numbers of people grant self proclaimed experts the same decision influence as people that probably do know the facts.  they lack the critical decision making capability to even distinguish between a political representatives actions and their deeds.

There are just a few facts, chemical and economical that matter

1:  Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline.

2:  Land & effort to grow crops for fuel causes food crop production to be of higher value.

Argue about the rest all you like, I can tell you that in 35,000 miles and 6 years on three carburetor equipped motorcycles, not one issue from fuel. 


I don't like it for the reasons above because I know what those two facts mean.