Topic: opinions for ingition system PAMCO vs Hondaman

[arncruz]

I was going to go with the oem points, new ignition coils and wires with the Hondaman iginition system but I saw some people on this forum using the PAMCO ignition system, and I wanted to get opinions on which would be easier to install and reliability.  I already know the PAMCO system is about $60 more expensive overall.  My CB550 is not for racing but more for riding around my small town.

Thanks

Arnold

[Mr Freeze]

Go with Hondaman's box. I have one in my 750 and it's great. It took longer to tie it up behind the battery box than it did to hook the wires up. The other nice thing is that if it fails some reason, you can disconnect it and reconnect the points back directly to the coils because it installs in line. Since it takes the stress of the points of doing all the work, frequency of adjustment and wear are reduced drastically.

The only thing I added was Dyna 5 ohm coils because my originals were bad. I like the Dynas a little more because you terminate the wires yourself so you can change them down the road without having to change the coils too.

[70CB750]

I use Pamco on my K0 and got Pamco for my build.  I like that it replaces points, I spent too much time in my life setting points on my CZ and I dont want to ever do it again - not even once.

[Schnell]

Perfectly happy with Hondaman points saver ignition system here, on my cb750k5.

[CB750F2]

I would go for the Hondaman system because it performs well and in the unlikely event of a breakdown it is very easy to revert back to points - 5 mins. I have had the Hondaman system for some years now and I have not had to adjust points. I have two F2s, one with a Dyna S and the other with a Hondaman. The bike that is registered has the Dyna and my intention is to swap it with the Hondaman. Pat

[arncruz]

So far 3 for Hondaman ignition and 1 for PAMCO.  Just a question about the Hondamans ignition system.   What adjustments do I need to do to the points plate or points if I use the hondaman vs the Pamco?  ie - which system is a plug-and-play system.  I am very new to points and point plate adjustments for timing.  I know that moving the points plate and or the points will mess up the timing. I was wondering if one system is easier to set up versus the other.

Thanks

[Trevor from Warragul]

I have a Hondaman on my Kawasaki H1A.

You set the points, fit the Hondman system, then forget that it's there...

Trevor

[Terry in Australia]

The benefit of Mark's (Hondaman's) ignition amplifier is that you get a better spark regardless of the condition of your battery, your battery can have as little as 6 volts and your bike will still run, as opposed to an electronic ignition which will run like sh1t if you haven't got a constant 12 volts. For a stock engine, the Hondaman ignition amplifier is a great device, I used to install similar amplifiers on Ford V8's back before Ford installed electronic ignitions, and they were great devices.

I don't know if Mark has changed his design, but one of the problems with the "switch-able" benefits mentioned above, is that, with his earleir design at least, you need to remove, or at least, disconnect your condensors when installing his ignition, so if it does conk out, you need to reinstall/reconnect the OEM condensors before you can ride home, which is a pain, because you need to carry your condensors and some tiny spanners in your toolkit, just in case. You also need to install a new set of points because Mark's ignition won't work well with old pitted points. 

I haven't tried the Pamco ignition yet, but I don't think it's any better than a Dyna S, and I think it's over priced for what it is. If I was going to buy a new Electronic ignition now, I'd go for a Dyna 2000 anyway, I installed one on a customers K1 last year, and the difference between the OEM ignition and the Dyna 2000 was like night and day, it did everything better with the Dyna 2000, but it needs to be kept in mind that you need to have a perfect charging system to get the best out of any electronic ignition, and that's why Hondaman's ignition amplifier is better for a stock bike, especially if the charging system is not 100%. Cheers, Terry.  

[arncruz]

Thanks Terry,
Great insight on this matter.

[70CB750]

Maybe Pamcopete will now weight in

[Court750Cafe]

installed my Hondaman at the beginning of the riding season this year. best upgrade i've done yet to this day!!

[goldarrow]

I think main consideration for many people is $.  Hondaman unit I think is $60? Pamco $120, dyna s $150, all still plus shipping.

[PeWe]

Most important is to avoid the 'Ultimate High Output Coil'. It's crap.
I installed that with Pamco. Had strange engine behaviour and looong story of adjusting stuff.
One day I noticed that the ignition wires from one coil were loose. They just fell out when touching them. The screw inside the coil that the wires is twisted onto had just left the plastic encapsulation of the coil. I used finger power when mounting the wires. That was enough to cause the small wrong designed screws to leave the coil.
I had bought the set over one year earlier, the restore took longer time so no warranty.
This also fried the Pamco electronis for that coil.

I purchased Dyna S instead with 3 ohms coils. The build quality in an other league (better). This is also possible to just connect to OEM harness direct with similar cable as OEM points.
I found that the 3 ohm coils drained the battery. I changed to 5 ohms, a little bit better but not enough with daylight headlight as we have here. I have never had charging issues on my bike.

Went back to points, TEC which is GOOD quality. Direct no charging issues, TEC points with Dyna 5 ohms coils. I have a Hondaman ignition module to mount. Too much other things have delayed that installation.

So:
Go for points with Hondaman module to improve it, last longer. Dyna 5 ohms coils if new coils. Might be others too.
OR
Dyna 2000 where you have different advance curves to use and skip the mechanical advancer.

[dave500]

I run two dual output .4 ohm coils wired in series,all four fire at once.

[Steve_K]

I have Hondaman's unit and I love it.  I did the 3000 mile tune up before I installed it.  Rode it for a day or two and then installed the unit.  I thought it ran well before, but I was wrong.  Major improvement on starting and running. 
73 CB750, mostly stock with Mac 4-1 exhaust and 45 mpg

Steve

PS
No experience with the other after market ignitions,  but I like them on my newer bikes(stock ignition)

[Lost and Confused]

I believe that you can't go wrong either way. Stay away from Dyna, heard about quality problems. I ran a Pamco, with no worries. So nice not to play with points!!!!.



Bob

[PeWe]

I have never had problem to adjust points.  I remember the Daiichi that was tricky when they changed when tighten the screws.
I understood that when joining this forum. I checked my old scrao points that I have saved from back in the days. 5 bad Daichi and 1 TEC plate.
Did my points almost once a year, some years not at all.  I got problem once in France on a holiday when one point broke, the bakelite stuff against the rotor broke. (Daiichi point) 30-50km driving on 2 cylinders to a Honda workshop and fixed the point.

[pamcopete]

The benefit of Mark's (Hondaman's) ignition amplifier is that you get a better spark regardless of the condition of your battery, your battery can have as little as 6 volts and your bike will still run, as opposed to an electronic ignition which will run like sh1t if you haven't got a constant 12 volts.

Here is a video of a PAMCO running with a 6 volt lantern battery which was actually 5.5 Volts for the test:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzuvyZom0ro

That is a 3/4" gap, so obviously there is sufficient voltage there to jump .03 + .03 = .06" combined gap of two spark plugs. That'll get you home if the alternator fails and you can start the engine with a low battery.

[pamcopete]

I think main consideration for many people is $.  Hondaman unit I think is $60? Pamco $120, dyna s $150, all still plus shipping.

Well, I think that you have to have a set of points for the Hondaman? All three of these systems will produce at least 50% higher voltage from your stock coils simply because they are electronic ignitions. So, whatever you do, do something about your points.

[goldarrow]

I think main consideration for many people is $.  Hondaman unit I think is $60? Pamco $120, dyna s $150, all still plus shipping.

Correcting myself on the prices listed above.

Hondaman ignition module $77 plus shipping - use your old points

Pamco ignition $119 plus shipping

Dyna s - $117 shipped, cheapest I've found on feebay

[Retro Rocket]

I think main consideration for many people is $.  Hondaman unit I think is $60? Pamco $120, dyna s $150, all still plus shipping.

Correcting myself on the prices listed above.

Hondaman ignition module $77 plus shipping - use your old points

Pamco ignition $119 plus shipping

Dyna s - $117 shipped, cheapest I've found on feebay

Unfair comparison, considering the electronic ignitions replace the points and associated parts add those extra parts  to your Hondaman prices and see how that works out...?  The electronics don't use points right..? {that isn't a question}

[pamcopete]

I think main consideration for many people is $.  Hondaman unit I think is $60? Pamco $120, dyna s $150, all still plus shipping.

Correcting myself on the prices listed above.

Hondaman ignition module $77 plus shipping - use your old points

Pamco ignition $119 plus shipping

Dyna s - $117 shipped, cheapest I've found on feebay

OK. Let me see if I understand you. Your engine is running like crap, hard to start and missing, so you buy a Hondaman system and just wire it in with the old points? That's like putting on a fresh pair of shorts without taking a shower, thinking that you are going to smell better!  I think that even Hondaman recommends a new set of points  to go with his system.

[goldarrow]

Don't get me wrong Pete. I'm just merely listing prices for different options so that the OP and others to see this in terms of dollars spend. 

My 75 750f runs on pamco unit. I'm happy with it. Had a set of dyna s, that 2-3 failed, and I got rid of that so quick. The rest of my other bikes still run on old stinkin' 40 year old points.  I'm happy with them.  Never had hondaman units, so I can't say a whole lot about it.

[Stoli]

It seems to me, comparing a Pamco to a Hondaman ignition is like comparing a CD player to a turntable*.  Or pinball to video games. OK, I know that is a bit of a stretch but it is the best analogy I could come up with. Pamco is an electronic ignition and Hondaman's is a hybrid that uses the points to fire transistors that handle the higher current loads. So the points don't wear down as fast since there is no arcing across them any more. I'd say you'd be pretty hard pressed to prove that one makes the bike run better than the other. It comes down to points or no points. The argument that you can easily switch back to a pure points system on the side of the road (in the event of transistor failure) is enticing and having that peace of mind has steered many to the Hondaman system. On the other hand, I think the Pamco is more reliable than many make it out to be. There is a reason why new vehicles don't have points.


* Some audiophiles prefer the sound of a well amplified turntable to that of a CD player. Others like the pure digital audio produced by a CD player.

[Terry in Australia]

It seems to me, comparing a Pamco to a Hondaman ignition is like comparing a CD player to a turntable*.  Or pinball to video games. OK, I know that is a bit of a stretch but it is the best analogy I could come up with. Pamco is an electronic ignition and Hondaman's is a hybrid that uses the points to fire transistors that handle the higher current loads. So the points don't wear down as fast since there is no arcing across them any more. I'd say you'd be pretty hard pressed to prove that one makes the bike run better than the other. It comes down to points or no points. The argument that you can easily switch back to a pure points system on the side of the road (in the event of transistor failure) is enticing and having that peace of mind has steered many to the Hondaman system. On the other hand, I think the Pamco is more reliable than many make it out to be. There is a reason why new vehicles don't have points.


* Some audiophiles prefer the sound of a well amplified turntable to that of a CD player. Others like the pure digital audio produced by a CD player.

If the points not wearing out as fast with Hondaman's ignition amplifier was the only advantage I'd agree with your analogy, but you missed the part where the spark is amplified to produce a spark similar to that of an electronic ignition. So I guess the comparison should be closer to that of a DVD compared to Blue Ray, which isn't really all that much. Cheers, Terry.

[Terry in Australia]

The benefit of Mark's (Hondaman's) ignition amplifier is that you get a better spark regardless of the condition of your battery, your battery can have as little as 6 volts and your bike will still run, as opposed to an electronic ignition which will run like sh1t if you haven't got a constant 12 volts.

Here is a video of a PAMCO running with a 6 volt lantern battery which was actually 5.5 Volts for the test:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzuvyZom0ro

That is a 3/4" gap, so obviously there is sufficient voltage there to jump .03 + .03 = .06" combined gap of two spark plugs. That'll get you home if the alternator fails and you can start the engine with a low battery.

Thanks Pete, and seeing your demonstration I remembered buying a device that improved the spark energy on one of my old Fords just by creating an "air gap" between the HT lead and the coil, so I can see what you're doing there. Cheers, Terry.

[Scott S]

 I've heard too many horror stories about Dyna failures and lack of customer support.

 Pete's customer support is the best in the business. The SOHC4 guys have been slow to accept it, but go to http://www.xs650.com/forum/ and search for Pamco. You'll see what you're getting in addition to a points replacement system.

 I've also heard only good things about the Hondaman system, but, as mentioned before....if your points are shot, you have to factor all that in, too. Makes the price parity a little closer.

[70CB750]

It was discussed here within the last year or so - Pamco is set as far as 1-4 and 2-3 are concerned.  You are not able to adjust them individually like Hondaman's two sets of points.

It never bothered me none, however somebody pointed that out, there is a thread on it.

I truly like the idea all of it inside the cover with no additional box to place.

[AJK]

Can't really agree with the new shorts scenario. You have old points, give them a cleanup with some wet'n'dry & install a hondaman ignition. The old points are only going to pull in milli-amps through the contacts, big deal. With old points and a clean connection & some lube, those points will likely last almost forever together with the HM installation. New points will help if you have a stock setup with no hondaman ignition, where amps are being pulled through the contacts, making them wear.
  I have the pamco and i'm happy, but just want to sort out the apples from the oranges. As far as GoldArrows costings go, don't forget that your bike will already have the points there for you to clean up, so i think he has a point. On the other hand, who cares about a $42 difference if your going to keep the bike a long time and want a pamco. I think its more like betamax vs VHS.

[Schnell]

Can't really agree with the new shorts scenario. You have old points, give them a cleanup with some wet'n'dry & install a hondaman ignition. The old points are only going to pull in milli-amps through the contacts, big deal. With old points and a clean connection & some lube, those points will likely last almost forever together with the HM installation. New points will help if you have a stock setup with no hondaman ignition, where amps are being pulled through the contacts, making them wear.
  I have the pamco and i'm happy, but just want to sort out the apples from the oranges. As far as GoldArrows costings go, don't forget that your bike will already have the points there for you to clean up, so i think he has a point. On the other hand, who cares about a $42 difference if your going to keep the bike a long time and want a pamco. I think its more like betamax vs VHS.

Well summarized, IMO.

[Stoli]

If the points not wearing out as fast with Hondaman's ignition amplifier was the only advantage I'd agree with your analogy, but you missed the part where the spark is amplified to produce a spark similar to that of an electronic ignition. So I guess the comparison should be closer to that of a DVD compared to Blue Ray, which isn't really all that much. Cheers, Terry.

Agreed. A stronger spark (less power loss over the point gaps) and less wear on the points are both advantages that the HM system has over the stock system. However, I think the general discussion here is comparing the HM to the Pamco and as you point out, they are probably very similar as far as the spark is concerned. I guess my analogy was more pointed towards what is going on to produce the spark as opposed to the spark itself. If you are comparing the end performance of each system, I guess they are both Bluerays.

The points plate in my recent project was a lost cause so it was an easy decision for me to go with the Pamco in that case.

[pamcopete]

It was discussed here within the last year or so - Pamco is set as far as 1-4 and 2-3 are concerned.  You are not able to adjust them individually like Hondaman's two sets of points.

It never bothered me none, however somebody pointed that out, there is a thread on it.

I truly like the idea all of it inside the cover with no additional box to place.

It is possible to gently bend the late sensor up off of the PC board to position it closer to the passing magnets so it will trigger a couple of degrees sooner. Do not bend it from side to side. Just straight up off of the PC board.

The other thing to keep in mind is that each coil produces a positive voltage on one plug wire and a negative on the other. The timing light works best on the negative wire. Some timing lights will not work at all on the positive wire, others will produce an erratic strobe that tends to be late because it is firing on the trailing edge of the pulse which is interpreted to mean that that cylinder is retarded. There is no easy way to determine which of the two coil wires is the negative wire, so if you are experiencing erratic or late timing, just switch to the other plug wire for that particular coil and see if the results are better.

This phenomena is also true with a points setup. We often hear of someone saying that they have run out of adjustment on the movable set of points. It could just be that they have their timing light clamped to the positive wire, so just try the other wire for that coil and see if the results are better.

[Mooshie]

Hondaman no contest.  Any problem on the road switch a few wires and you are back to points only.  I have been using HM for almost 5 years.  Very happy with that unit. 

[70CB750]

I run Pamco with no backup, trust it completely

Hondaman no contest.  Any problem on the road switch a few wires and you are back to points only.  I have been using HM for almost 5 years.  Very happy with that unit.