Author Topic: Slow off the line  (Read 2195 times)

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Offline Gavinator

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Slow off the line
« on: August 27, 2014, 02:45:08 pm »
Hi all,
 The 750A is new to me. My son has a modified Jr Dragster that has the 750A on it.  It is very slow off the line! It will get up to speed but takes forever and only hits about 52 mph in 1/4 mile.
 A friend said it seems like problem may be in torque converter or trans..
 Any suggestions where I should start?

Offline bear

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 03:53:51 pm »
Welcome to the forum.
I'm sure one of the auto gurus ie, Uncle Sam, Bill, Mike or Mr Auto himself, Jon Weeks will endeavor to help you out.
In the meantime check out the link below for some background.
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Cheers,
Brian



http://forums.sohc4.net.index.php?.topic=61876.0
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 03:56:15 pm by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 06:58:48 pm »
Ok thanks much.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 07:14:37 pm »
Well hopefully you've come to the right place. Do you run 1st and 2nd? If you start in 2nd it'll be 4 sec's slower in 1/4.... on our bike.  18 first run, 14.xx next one using both gears.  Sprocket size in front and rear? Carbs? Exhaust? A little more info, we're down to 12.05 and Sam backed off so as not to break out! K. ;D Good Luck, Bill Anyone else running one? We hit 95.xx in 1/8 and 119.26 best mph in 1/4. Did that at Summer Nationals Test and Tune Aug 1st! 8)
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 08:49:02 pm »
Gearing and weight??

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 02:30:02 am »
Please bear with me guys. I am brand new to this.  I have to travel to work on it. I will get the gearing next time there. As far as the rest, I believe the motor, carbs, etc are stock. It has a homemade header piped out with no muffler. Running in 1st gear. No need to shift as slow as it is going in the 1/4 right now. I wound guess the weight with driver to be aprox. 650-700 lbs..

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 03:51:07 am »
Is it a Car? also, what ET is it running, was this a one off Terminal Speed or is it consistently running this speed through the Quarter ?
Why keep it in low gear, it might be flat out after just 300 foot, hence the low speed.

Sam.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 03:57:46 am by Sam Green Racing »
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 03:59:04 am »
Also, Welcome to our forum.  8)

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 02:57:29 pm »
Thanks for the welcoming.
   It is a car.  The guy we got it from cut off the back end of a jr dragster and rebuilt to fit the 750 on it. He is starting in 1st and really could go the whole 1/4 without needing to shift to 2nd the way it is acting right now. RPM's don't get up until he almost through 1/4. Not sure what the ET is yet. Just got it running. It would be pretty consistent in its current state of slow.
 Also, I forgot to mention that it wants to die when you first put it into gear which is also why my buddy was thinking it may be a problem with trans/converter.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 03:38:41 pm »
Sounds like you need some help setting it up, where are you located and which track do you run at?

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline jweeks

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 07:37:34 pm »
     The gearing is wrong for your application. You want the combination to be around 10,000 rpm in high gear at 100 mph. You can use a gearing calculator for your wheel diameters to help get the right sprocket combination. The 530 sprockets are plenty strong enough with a 530 racing chain for your application. 630 chain and sprockets just add unnecessary rotating weight.
     How stock is this motor? If the carbs are stock, that's part of the problem. Removing the air cleaner puts more air into the carbs. They need to be jetted richer to run right. Unfortunately that introduces other problems with the idle circuit getting richer than you want. The easiest way to fix the carbs is to remove them and replace with CV carbs taken off of older 700/750 Seca's. An increase of a couple of main jet sizes on the replacement carbs will be a good starting point. They bolt up to a Hondamatic motor using stock K (clutch) intake manifolds.
     The motor wants to be launched off of the rear brakes. You apply the rear brakes, add throttle, and release the rear brakes when the third yellow bulb on the Christmas tree comes on. That will give you the most consistent runs. You get on the gas only when the top yellow bulb (of the 3) comes on. Being on the gas for longer than that increases the risk to overheat your motor's oil. Overheated oil gets a thinner viscosity that never goes back to where you started. The only thing to do to fix the thin oil problem is to change the oil. You want a mineral based oil. Synthetics are too slippery which slows power transfer through the torque converter. An external oil cooler will also help the repeatability of the combination.
     Your combination is about 150 pounds heavier than the Hondamatic bikes that we race. That will put an added stress to the clutch packs in the motor. They will start slipping over time with the abuse of racing. If you want to go fast/quick with a Hondamatic motor, you must spend some money. It can be done in steps over time, but it will not end up being a cheap race vehicle. Your goals need to be aligned with your budget.
     The motor has small carbs, low factory compression ratio, and a very mild cam. Stock regeared Hondamatics run 13's in the quarter mile. Add about 150 lbs to the mix and you'll be around low 15's in your vehicle with a little investment. Sam's modified Hondamatic runs about a 12 flat in the quarter. His combination in your vehicle would be low/middle 13's. Is this quick enough for your goals? These are estimates that could be a little off.
     You need torque to get the vehicle moving. Torque comes from compression, mild racing cams advanced for midrange improvements, good air flow through the cylinder head, and more stroke than stock if you can afford it. Tuning the intake and exhaust systems will also help improve the power in the lower rpm range.
     There have been several topics that have covered some of the above suggestions. If you still want to try this, let us know your current status of the equipment and the budget to improve it. If it sounds like too much $$ and too much work, sell the motor and try some other clutch 4 cylinder motorcycle motor in it's place.
     It can be a very consistent bracket race vehicle with proper modifications. Keep us posted  ;)

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 03:05:16 am »
Wow!  That is a lot of info! Going to run it NLR in Morroco, IN..  Sounds like changing the motor might be the best option for us. We have a very limited budget. My son bought this thing to play with since he can no longer run the kids class after this year. Sounds like we are in over our heads.  I might try to change the gearing but other than that just try to get it running as good as I can and play around with it until if/when he decides to trade it for something else.
 Thank you all for your time and advise.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 07:02:49 am »
Is the Junior class that he runs in an ET class, where he states what his time will be, then has to run to it after a handicap style start (the slower car gets to start first) ?
If so, The stock Hondamatic will be a good motor for him to learn with, it's more like the original motor than anything else.

Sam. ;) 
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 05:52:01 pm »
Yes it is Sam. He runs in all run bracket on a super pocket rocket now with hopes to run with the men in the next year.
 Bill

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 06:27:41 pm »
Hey Bill, I'm guessing there is no tachometer? It may be something as simple as faulty throttle linkage that won't allow the throttles to open fully. Was a jack-shaft used to couple the engine to the rear axle? Pictures would be very helpful in a custom application like this. ;)
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Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 02:29:14 am »
Hi Scottly, Your right, No tach on it.  No jack shaft.  It has an atv rear end on it.   I have checked the thottle and it is opening all the way. What would be the result if the torque converter had internal lock up or or drag?  I am going to look at it this weekend if time allows me to.  I will take some pictures then.  Thanks

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 02:45:19 am »
Don't waste your time looking at the converter, it sounds like the low speed through the trap is because he's still in low gear.
My bike was stock when I first ran it and it wasn't in a good state of tune, it only ran 75mph in 18.25 seconds through the quarter. Had I kept it in low gear, I guess it would have recorded a speed of 55mph through the quarter in about 20 seconds, it would have been flat out well before half track and stopped accelerating.

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 05:41:29 am »
Change gearing, use both 1st and 2nd! Problem solved....maybe! lol. Bill
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
______________________________________
See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2014, 03:00:41 pm »
Thanks gents.  Gonna try to tune it and see if I change the rear gear. 

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2014, 04:03:36 pm »
It really would help if he had a rev counter/tacho so that he knows when the motor hits peak revs.
The stock tacho and cam box cover off a K model will fit, it has the pick up for the tacho and I think even the auto cam has the drive worm. You might just need a longer cable making up due to the motor being behind him.

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 03:40:19 pm »
Just an update guys.  Found timing and points off and a bad coil.  Getting new coil. Hope that takes care of it. Thanks, Bill

Offline stikman

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 11:18:30 pm »
Hope you update us.  I'm certainly interested in the results.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2014, 12:48:24 am »
Just an update guys.  Found timing and points off and a bad coil.  Getting new coil. Hope that takes care of it. Thanks, Bill

Consider converting it to electronic ignition via a DYNA S pickup and you'll see a difference in the way it runs. I'm in aggreement with the guys that gearing needs to be looked at carefully, especially in the heavier package.   

Offline Gavinator

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2014, 03:19:18 am »
Hey all, Just wanted to give an update.  After replacing bad coil, adjusting the timing and points we have now reached 78 mph in the quarter. Seams to be running lean. Thinking about rejetting carbs.. Also running open header. Someone suggested that I should have a muffler on it because back pressure will help. 

Offline POPS 911

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Re: Slow off the line
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2014, 05:25:58 am »
400cc Hondamatic w/400T carbs 34mm, .20 off the head,w/tach shifting at 7000rpm's,2-1 open header,189lb. rider w/full gear on  runs 70 mph at 18.41 with 18 front-34 rear gear ratio,530 chain in 1320'. And these 750 matics only running 75 mph 18.25............... must be the heavy bike with all the luggage they do not need to be DRAG BIKES.....