Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 352366 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1225 on: January 13, 2017, 11:38:57 PM »
I'll be all set with buying parts very soon. At least any major parts. Just waiting on the PAMCO ignition from Pete that I'll have to modify slightly to get it to work.

I think the issue is you own too many bikes! If you were only poor like me you'd be forced to get on the frame and whatever else you need to do to get it running.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1226 on: January 14, 2017, 09:27:35 AM »
I'll be all set with buying parts very soon. At least any major parts. Just waiting on the PAMCO ignition from Pete that I'll have to modify slightly to get it to work.

I think the issue is you own too many bikes! If you were only poor like me you'd be forced to get on the frame and whatever else you need to do to get it running.

LOL! You hit it right on the head.  I guess I kind of de-prioritized/got distracted with my other bikes.  I have my wheels coming together soon.  After that I have all my chassis components to mock up and get the frame work done (not too much left to do -- the frame is detabbed, just needs some work on new mounting points for the tank, seat, oil cooler).

I decided to go with a C5 ignition so I don't have to deal with the temperamental and pricey CDI boxes.  Just got it from Paul -- great guy to deal with.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1227 on: January 14, 2017, 07:47:13 PM »
Ok, so I've started assembling the cam cover and want to get the motor buttoned up this week. I'm just a bit confused what needs to be done to find what head gasket thickness I need. In case you forgot, my current MLS gasket is .051".

Anyway...I plan on clamping the cylinders to the case somehow (not sure how yet) and measuring the piston to head gasket surface distance. The pistons are crowned so I guess I just measure from the piston edge? Not really sure what this measurement will tell me, though. Next I plan on putting the head and cam on and degreeing the cam? Then installing the rocker cover and spinning the motor (using clay on the piston) to check valve to piston clearance. Then just telling you all my numbers and have you say what is right or wrong, haha.

Am I starting in the right place?

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1228 on: January 15, 2017, 11:56:00 AM »
Just measuring the piston to head gasket surface clearance. Since the piston will rock on the wrist pin I assume I should be measuring on the left or right edge of the piston, not on the front or back. I'm getting .013" (.33mm). And that's with a dial indicator saying a piston is at TDC. Here are some pictures.




Anything wrong with this? I'm now going to clean a piston, put some play doh on it and put on the cam and degree this thing. Again, since these are domed pistons, does this measurement matter? Is this more for the quench area?

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1229 on: January 15, 2017, 01:53:10 PM »
Those of you that have gotten hard welded rockers from Megacycle, have the tappet adjuster screws been VERY hard to screw in? Some are harder than others. Is it common practice to have to run a tap through the threads to open them up? I assume it has to do with the media blasting that was done. I would already have run a tap through them but I don't have a tap that size (M6x.75). Thoughts?

Thanks

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1230 on: January 15, 2017, 03:33:03 PM »
Not mine, but it was over a year ago.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1231 on: January 15, 2017, 04:33:39 PM »
I ended up finding that certain screws worked well in certain rockers. Took me about 30 minutes to swap them around so they all work, haha.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,449
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1232 on: January 15, 2017, 04:34:00 PM »
I don't remember having issues with the adjusters either. Might be worth buying a thread chaser.

You could use a thinner base gasket to get closer to "0" deck. Especially since you're using a thicker 0.051" head gasket. Too much clearance here and there is no real squish effect, but of course you know it will run either way!  ;D After degreeing the cam I suggest checking valve/piston clearance by gently prying the valve open until it touches the piston. Much more accurate. Simply install the inner springs (less pressure to open) with the dial indicator on the spring retainer. Absolutely use a piston stop to find true TDC, this is one most important issue.
With the degree wheel in place it's easy to check several crank positions, but usually 10 degrees before or after depending on the valve is the tightest clearance position. Minimum numbers are intake, 0.040" and exhaust, 0.060". You're entering the fun zone....important engine building work.  ;)

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1233 on: January 15, 2017, 07:41:59 PM »
So the goal is 0 deck? A thinner base gasket is an option.

I was planning on doing the clay method but I think I'll do the dial indicator method instead. I just need to be able to remove the springs with the head on. Not quite sure how I should do that yet.

Another thing that's problematic is that I can't access the cam sprocket bolts with the rocker cover on. Do I need to get a sacrificial cover and cut out that center hump? I don't see it going well if I have to remove the cover to adjust the cam sprocket and then reassemble and hope I moved it enough.

And to clarify something, I can't use a dial indicator on the tappet adjuster because it moves in an arc, right? My indicator won't reach the spring retainers and doesn't accept threaded extensions.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1234 on: January 16, 2017, 04:36:27 AM »
I'm using a degree wheel I printed offline. This is the setup.



I don't need the rocker cover on? Don't I need to see when the cam makes the valves open/close? I'm doing (attempting to do) two things, first, degreeing in the cam to verify the manufactures specs and then adjusting  with the slotted cam gear to get as close to the specs on the card as possible.



Then, after it's degreed in, I'm going to check valve to piston clearance with either clay or a dial indicator. I forget what Megacycle recommends but I think it's something like .065"-.080" intake-exhaust.

Finding true TDC is easy. I made a piston stop from a spark plug. Works like a charm and is easily verifiable.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1235 on: January 16, 2017, 05:02:59 AM »
You dial in the cam with the rocker cover off, Dave. Once that's dialed in (having adjusted the sprocket) you then pry your valves open to check interference with clay.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=162907.0

Just reading your post from here. Oh ok, I'm measuring right off the cam lobe to find it's centerline. Got it.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1236 on: January 16, 2017, 05:13:46 AM »
Re-read Brent's last reply about how to pry the valves open and when.

I see that, but I took that as the rocker cover was on and the cam was making the valves open/close. Looking online there are dozens of videos of people degreeing cams. Every one of them says to use sold lifters instead of hydraulic ones. To me, that means that you need the cam to operate the valves. Also, the cam card above says to check this with zero valve lash. Can't have zero lash without the rockers.

Putting the crank at a given degree without the rockers on and just pressing open a closed valve doesn't seem right. I'd think I'd need to have the cam start to open a valve where it's closest to the piston then pry on the valve to see how much more it goes down until it hits the piston. At least, that's what I've been watching on YouTube.


Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1238 on: January 16, 2017, 06:50:09 AM »
The degreeing part is kind of confusing. I'm talking about reading the numbers and making sense of it all. If you look at the cam card it says both intake and exhaust lobe centers are 104.5°. Does that mean when I find the cam's exact center of the nose of the cam that I should be seeing 104.5° on my degree wheel? And if I see that it's not really necessary to check the other measurements? I understand that reaching all the numbers exactly on the card isn't likely and that close enough is good enough.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,449
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1239 on: January 16, 2017, 08:00:41 AM »
Ahh...I'm a piston stop, cover on kind of guy. There is a rocker arm ratio involved, best to indicate from the spring retainer to get the info. Concerning a degree wheel, and as Mike R always claims, the bigger the better. Mine is 11" and I wouldn't mind larger. Even step needs accuracy starting with dead true TDC. Dave with that cam I always get 105 degree LC's both sides. Opening & closing numbers may not exactly match the card but start with the intake side and aim for that 25d opening first.

Again Mr. Rieck prefers running lash instead of "0". I've used 0 but now follow the JMR light  ;) and use running lash. It allows more consistant feel setting with a feeler. Otherwise setting lash @ "0" with a rocker that has end play and a curved pad is difficult to get consistancy. So with this approach instead of 0.040" checking height use 0.036" intake side, 0.035" exhaust. Every bit of accuracy in checking gets closer to the cam card. I'm anal and don't settle, sometimes it takes me a few hours to get exact LC's, sometimes it nearly falls into place.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1240 on: January 16, 2017, 09:27:19 AM »
Ahh...I'm a piston stop, cover on kind of guy. There is a rocker arm ratio involved, best to indicate from the spring retainer to get the info. Concerning a degree wheel, and as Mike R always claims, the bigger the better. Mine is 11" and I wouldn't mind larger. Even step needs accuracy starting with dead true TDC. Dave with that cam I always get 105 degree LC's both sides. Opening & closing numbers may not exactly match the card but start with the intake side and aim for that 25d opening first.

Again Mr. Rieck prefers running lash instead of "0". I've used 0 but now follow the JMR light  ;) and use running lash. It allows more consistant feel setting with a feeler. Otherwise setting lash @ "0" with a rocker that has end play and a curved pad is difficult to get consistancy. So with this approach instead of 0.040" checking height use 0.036" intake side, 0.035" exhaust. Every bit of accuracy in checking gets closer to the cam card. I'm anal and don't settle, sometimes it takes me a few hours to get exact LC's, sometimes it nearly falls into place.

So if you're a cover on kind of guy, haha, then you must have modified the cover, no? How do you adjust the cam otherwise?

I was reading Mike's thoughts on valve lash...I don't know what I want to do, right now it seems more confusing because I still don't even know what degree is, haha.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,449
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1241 on: January 16, 2017, 09:47:50 AM »
It takes a modified cover for sure. I once typed a lengthy how-to re degreeing, but so did Sean Condon years ago. Try searching to find something on here Dave, if no luck I'll try to help out.

PM sent too. 

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1242 on: January 16, 2017, 11:21:19 AM »
... because I still don't even know what degree is, haha.
1 increment of a full circle when divided by 360  :D

Haha, thanks Cal. The more you know!

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1243 on: January 16, 2017, 12:01:55 PM »
Ha, nope! I don't have any of those so I'm sticking with that circle thing you're talking about. Deee-greee, sounds boring.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1244 on: January 16, 2017, 12:18:27 PM »
Removed everything and I'm starting over. I'll do the dial indicator method instead of clay. I just put on some light springs from the hardware store to make it easier for me to push the valves down. I didn't want to start prying on things. This'll be easy to work with. I saw Jafro do it and it seemed pretty nice. And yes, these are still more than strong enough to close the valve fully.




Offline flatlander

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,588
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1245 on: January 16, 2017, 01:20:00 PM »
hey i see that CMSNL guy is helping you with measuring stuff, ha ha!

tappet screws in hard weld megacycle rockers:
i had one that absolutely didn't want to go through, it was so tight. tried different screws and it was a no-go. had to run a tap through.

interesting: my megacycle timing card for the 12600 (milder than your cam) gives a running clearance of 0.005/0.006 (wider than yours). if anything, i would have expected it to be the other way around.

degreeing with cover on: you can do it with your regular cover without cutting it open, but you'll be taking it on and off a few times. you don't need to use all the bolts...

from a fellow (ex-) first time degree-er, here's what worked for me (if i remember correctly):

1 - find TDC on #1 with your piston stop, and mark it on the ignition plate
2 - set up your degree wheel so that 0 degrees aligns with TDC
3 - install the cam on your slotted sprocket, using the stock method with the notch to get it close to where it should be
4 - adjust cam chain tension
5 - install cover
6 - set tappets to running clearance (on #1)
7 - at 0.04 lift, note down the opening and closing number for both the IN and EX valves of #1
8 - calculate IN duration: (IN open value before TDC) + (IN closing value after BDC) + 180
9 - calculate IN lobe centre: (IN duration / 2) - (IN open value before TDC)
10 - calculate the same way the EX lobe centre
11 - unless you're super lucky, the IN and EX lobe centres won't be the same
12 - remove cover (make sure the tappets are free by snapping them back with your fingers!)
13 - adjust cam back or forward as needed
14 - start at step 5 again (make sure the tappets are free by snapping/holding them back with your fingers!)
15 - repeat 5 to 14 until IN and EX lobe centres are even (or until you're so fed up that you don't care about the last bit of tiny difference any more)
16 - check valve to piston clearance on IN and EX, at 10 degrees before and after TDC

if you can get your hands on a spare cover that you can cut open at the cam sprocket, like brent has, then your life will be much easier.

your lobe centres are most likely not going to be exactly as on the timing card. just get them as even as you can. megacycle told me that they consider anything that's within 5 degrees of specs, to be within tolerances.
this gets the cam dialled in for running. if you want to measure it to verify the spec on the timing card, you need to set tappets to 0 clearance.

get into zen mode and take your time! you'll be repeating these steps a few times.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1246 on: January 16, 2017, 01:34:46 PM »
Dude, I really appreciate you taking the time to type that up. I'm going to read through this a few times, it's starting to make sense (I don't want to get my hopes up though, haha).

As for the CMSNL guy, yeah he's my drinking buddy, haha.

Thanks brother!

Oh, and I did just buy a cover off eBay for $50, free shipping. Comes with rockers too. Hopefully a local machine shop can mill the hump off as I wait.

My thinking is if anyone on the forum wants to use it for a 650 build (seems to be getting more popular) I'll happily ship it to them.

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1247 on: January 17, 2017, 10:20:22 AM »
When I get my new rocker cover to mod to be able to adjust the cam, would it be a bad thing to only install the rockers for cylinder 1? Not sure if there'd be an uneven load on the cam which could throw results or damage something.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

  • Speak up, Whipper-Snapper! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,556
  • SOHC/4 Member #1235
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1248 on: January 17, 2017, 10:41:41 AM »
Dude, I really appreciate you taking the time to type that up. I'm going to read through this a few times, it's starting to make sense (I don't want to get my hopes up though, haha).

As for the CMSNL guy, yeah he's my drinking buddy, haha.

Thanks brother!

Oh, and I did just buy a cover off eBay for $50, free shipping. Comes with rockers too. Hopefully a local machine shop can mill the hump off as I wait.

My thinking is if anyone on the forum wants to use it for a 650 build (seems to be getting more popular) I'll happily ship it to them.

How much do you have to spend with CMSNL to get the drinking buddy? One main bearing seal?  ;) ::)
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,616
Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1249 on: January 17, 2017, 12:07:40 PM »
Dude, I really appreciate you taking the time to type that up. I'm going to read through this a few times, it's starting to make sense (I don't want to get my hopes up though, haha).

As for the CMSNL guy, yeah he's my drinking buddy, haha.

Thanks brother!

Oh, and I did just buy a cover off eBay for $50, free shipping. Comes with rockers too. Hopefully a local machine shop can mill the hump off as I wait.

My thinking is if anyone on the forum wants to use it for a 650 build (seems to be getting more popular) I'll happily ship it to them.

How much do you have to spend with CMSNL to get the drinking buddy? One main bearing seal?  ;) ::)

CMSNL is cheap nowadays so with the handful of orders I put in, no CMSNL guy, bummer! But Flatlander was nice enough to send me one. Only thing he asked in return was for me to call him Papa Bear. A little strange but hell, I'll take it. :))