Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 352242 times)

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1275 on: January 26, 2017, 05:13:47 AM »
Got my PAMCO ignition yesterday. Pretty excited about it.



Here's the full kit on the right (ignition on plate with rotor) and on the left is my existing plate with advancer mechanism.



This is an ignition for a 750 so it'll have to be modified. A couple ways to do this as I understand. One is to turn down the PAMCO plate to fit. The other is to transfer the PAMCO ignition bits to the 650 plate.

Also the PAMCO rotor doesn't fit on the 650 advance mechanism so I either need to bore out the hole a bit (from 15mm to 15.7mm) or see if an advancer for a 750 will fit on my bike. Anyone have any 750 advancer spares they want to get rid of :) ?

Offline Godffery

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1276 on: January 26, 2017, 06:07:50 AM »
I'm pretty sure the 750 & 550 advance mechanisms are the same.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1277 on: January 26, 2017, 06:23:41 AM »
I'm pretty sure the 750 & 550 advance mechanisms are the same.

Could be. I'll check with my 550. I haven't gotten out to the shop to check yet. That would be convenient :)

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1278 on: January 27, 2017, 05:20:10 PM »
Put the PAMCO plate in my little lathe and turned it down to match the Honda plate. Also filed down little notches for the screws that hold it in place.

In order to use the PAMCO plate for the 650 you have to rotate the plate 180°. If not, the existing screw slots will be right where it's supposed to mount to the case and since the slots are too large, you won't be able to bolt it down. Rotating it puts the plate in a new position so the existing screw slots aren't in the way. You'll also need to drill a new witness hole.

I tried transferring the holes to the OEM plate but it didn't line up perfectly. Since these don't have two different adjustments for 1-4 & 2-3 they kind of need to be as perfect as possible so I didn't want to mess with it. You do have a bit of adjustment by being able to bend up the sensor to advance one compared to the other, but it's not much adjustment at all.





I will also end up facing the plate to match the thickness of the Honda plate only where the mounting screws go. Right now it's too thick so it cocks the screw to one side. Unacceptable. Also I need new bearings in my lathe, haha.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1279 on: January 27, 2017, 05:30:24 PM »
Dave,

Are you using the Pamco to bypass the need to run the 650 harness with the CDI boxes? 
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1280 on: January 27, 2017, 05:58:12 PM »
Dave,

Are you using the Pamco to bypass the need to run the 650 harness with the CDI boxes?

Yeah, I have a custom harness with my m-Unit and don't want to add CDI boxes anywhere. The PAMCO fits the bill well because it's cheap and easy to make work. We all can't spend the money on that C5 ignition ;)


Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1282 on: January 27, 2017, 06:05:23 PM »
Dave,

Are you using the Pamco to bypass the need to run the 650 harness with the CDI boxes?

Yeah, I have a custom harness with my m-Unit and don't want to add CDI boxes anywhere. The PAMCO fits the bill well because it's cheap and easy to make work. We all can't spend the money on that C5 ignition ;)

Different roads to the same destination.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1283 on: January 29, 2017, 05:12:12 PM »
Ok, so I'm degreeing the cam now. I'm out in the shop with whiskey and the CMSNL guy and it's going well. I set running clearance to exactly .004" intake and .005" exhaust. Using soft springs like I am it's not easy to use feeler gauges because one that's too big will slip in and open the valve. Bummer. Instead I set up the dial indicator right on top of the rocker adjustment screw and adjusted it until I had exactly that amount of play being read on the dial indicator. Seemed like a good way to go.

My first go was with the intake. At .036" on dial indicator the degree wheel showed 27.5° before TDC. Then I rotated it and brought it back to .036" and the degree wheel showed 49.75° after BDC.
27.5+49.75+180=257.25°

My target according to the cam card is 259° so I'm 1.75° off. Pretty close for just eyeballing the cam. I'm going to try and adjust the cam now. I'm not sure if the best method is to get all my numbers in first or try and get the intake duration down and then move on to other numbers.


Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1284 on: January 29, 2017, 05:50:27 PM »
Ok so just for fun I moved the cam from one end of the slotted gear to the other. One side, my end result for intake duration was 257°. The other side of the adjustable cam gear was 257.5°. Is it possible I only have half a degree of play with this slotted cam gear? Am I off by a tooth? I'm pretty certain I put it on the right tooth when I set it up initially.

Thoughts?

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1285 on: January 29, 2017, 06:52:30 PM »
Hmm, my exhaust side seems to be way off compared to my intake side.

To calculate intake duration is:
open BTDC + close ATDC + 180 = duration

Correct?

Is it the exact same equation for exhaust? It seems like that equation should be:
open BBDC + close ATDC + 180 = duration. No? I mean, that's the only set of numbers that make sense to me.

Could be my set up. Which leads me to a question. Is it good enough to eyeball the dial indicator with respect to getting it lined up with the valve direction of travel? Would be nice to know the angle that the valve sits in the head so I can match it.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1286 on: January 30, 2017, 04:42:20 AM »
Try to set your indicator to match valve angle as closely as possible. Your goal is to match lobe centers. I think the 126-20 advertises 104.5 degrees, I always see 105, but regardless, try to match both intake & exhaust LC's.    27.5+49.75+180=257.25 divided by 2= 128.625 - 27.5 (opening number) =101.125.

Start on the intake side and once you're close to 105 degrees, switch your setup to the exhaust side to compare.

Duration will be what it will be, with this cam getting the LC's even is your goal.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1287 on: January 30, 2017, 05:12:34 AM »
Lobe centers, got it!

I'll do my best with the valve angle, too. The 650 cover really shrouds the valve so for me it's a little tough to find, but I'll get it.

Thanks Brent!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1288 on: January 30, 2017, 10:12:13 AM »
Hmm, ok I think I'm making progress. Here's my work sheet.



The numbers are as follows:
Intake
Open BTDC - 23.75°
Close ABDC - 53.25°
math math math
Duration - 257°
Lobe Center - 104.75°

Exhaust
Open BBDC - 51.5°
Close ATDC - 22°
math math math
Duration - 253.5°
Lobe Center - 104.75°

That's good, right? I mean if I were to try and adjust a quarter degree to 104.5 for the intake then the exhaust will probably be off the other direction, no? I think it's on to measuring valve clearance.

Edit: Also just rechecked my TDC mark and it's all exactly where it's supposed to be. This is fun, haha.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1289 on: January 30, 2017, 12:38:30 PM »
that's bloody good, indeed. it won't get any better than that, so it's time to call it a day and crack open that whiskey. if they CMSNL guy left you any...

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1290 on: January 30, 2017, 01:11:37 PM »
Cool, that's kind of what I was thinking. But no relaxing just yet. I'm now checking valve clearance at the various degrees that Brent listed: 5, 8, 10, 12, 15 both before and after TDC.

I also assume this has to be checked at TDC of the exhaust stroke where the valves are in motion.

Next post of clearance numbers coming shortly after I type it up. After these messages...we'll be riiiiiight back!


Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1291 on: January 30, 2017, 02:05:05 PM »
Here's my little table. These were taken at the various degrees of TDC of the exhaust stroke. Hope that's right.



If the minimum figures are 0.040" intake clearance, 0.060" exhaust clearance, then I'm well within spec. It seems like almost too much. I assume this is because my head gasket that's .051" and base gasket that's .020". I am not against getting a thinner base gasket at .010" and a head gasket at something like .031". I'd like to have somewhat normal clearance (a bit on the dangerous side :) ) instead of a giant clearance and lose compression.

Thoughts?

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1292 on: January 30, 2017, 03:28:03 PM »
I measured .013" with the cylinders clamped onto the case.

Yeah, I'd like to get closer to your numbers. Of course this will work but I feel like I'm in the "child's play" zone and not the "bad mother f*cker" zone, haha.

Edit: also the MLS gaskets only crush about .002" so that won't really change.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1293 on: January 30, 2017, 04:11:36 PM »
Well done Dave. I simply suggested checking clearance at multiple positions because it's not always tightest at 10 degrees, plus when you're already set-up it's easy. On the intake side the valve is chasing the piston down ATDC so your 0.091" @10d is plenty safe. Exhaust checks are made BTDC while the piston is chasing a closing valve. Here again, very safe since the tightest clearance is 0.133".

For a first test I always check each cylinder to be sure but with those type clearances should be fine especially if Mike did the head. He makes sure seat depths will be very close between the four chambers.

Now if you were 0.013" down the hole you could use a 0.010" base and a 0.040" head gasket. Or keep the base gasket you have & change for a 0.032" MLS. It just depends what's available in MLS head gaskets. The viton coated steel base gaskets are 0.010, 0.014, & 0.020". 

Gasket changes will allow for a reasonable squish clearance but you'll still have tons of valve clearance. To get those tighter you'll need to design your own piston crowns! Remember though when you start making changes to "tighten things" use solder or clay to be certain.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1294 on: January 30, 2017, 06:44:15 PM »
Thanks Brent, I guess my question is, WWBD (what would bwaller do)? It seems with these wide clearances I'm loosing potential power.

I think of it like you're putting in a door. Let's say you don't want any less than 1/8" gap all around for swelling, etc. Maybe 3/16" is a good number. But I've just put in a door that has a full inch of space all around. Yes, it's totally safe from swelling and such, but it's not good work. Feel me?

If getting a .032" head gasket would mean I could use my current base gasket then that would be nice. And it'll get my clearance numbers a little tighter. But I get the feeling that what I want to do is bring my piston to deck height tighter, no?

I think my problem is that I just don't know what should be done.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1295 on: January 30, 2017, 07:33:26 PM »
Thanks Cal, that helps. I'm going to be super excited when I get this motor together and launching me down the road regardless. I do want to get tighter numbers, but I don't need to go nuts. Solid and safe seems like a great combo :)

Now, a question for anyone I guess...if I bring the valves closer to the pistons by using a thinner base and head gasket, let's say instead of .020" and .052" I use a .010" and .040" as Brent mentioned...would that .022" reduction translate to a .022" reduction in valve clearance? So, would it (roughly) bring my .091" to .069"?

Also, Brent, I can get any size head gasket apparently custom made. I think each layer is about .010". And lastly, I'm thinking of not using Dynoman for the gaskets. They're just using 550 gaskets for 650 motors. They're the same dimensions, but the embossing around the cam chain tunnel isn't correct. Not sure how critical that is.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1296 on: January 31, 2017, 05:08:38 AM »
I've mentioned it'll run like a bandit without "tightening" anything. Consider what Honda built, 0.016" (often) down the hole, a 1mm head gasket and way adequate valve piston clearance, similar to what you just saw. These kind of ultra safe clearances ran reliably well. However there was virtually no effect of squish at over 0.050".

You're building a signature engine and have the opportunity to tweak some of those clearances to develop a little extra. Since you asked.... I would use the thinner base gasket (0.010") to bring the piston compression height close to deck, then use a 0.040" MLS head gasket. That way the head gasket thickness equals your squish clearance. Safe but should help.

I have seen piston/head kissing in my race engine when I increased the rev limit instead of changing sprockets the last race of 2011, this with 0.036" clearance and stock rods, & new F3 bolts. I cannot say if the rods stretch, or bolts, or both, or if the piston crown grows exponentially with more heat and 12K rpm, but it was obvious to me that there is a definite need for clearance. (now with Carrillo's I run much tighter so I expect the stretch is rod related)

One other thought is with the 650 head. Unless your bore is larger than the combustion chamber there is difficulty gaining squish advantage with that hemi style chamber. The 550's use that cast in squish shelf and in my opinion, with the right piston crown, there is hidden power available. The beauty of the 650 is increased valve size/improved ports. I have my own ideas how to improve this chamber but money always gets in the way!

All the more reason to check with solder or clay after you choose which gaskets to use. Be thorough Dave and it will be great.

Finishing this job will be carb selection, what do you have planned?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 05:11:40 AM by bwaller »

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1297 on: January 31, 2017, 05:25:53 AM »
Since you asked.... I would use the thinner base gasket (0.010") to bring the piston compression height close to deck, then use a 0.040" MLS head gasket. That way the head gasket thickness equals your squish clearance. Safe but should help.


Thanks Brent, that totally makes sense. I see bringing the piston up (cylinders down) so there's roughly .003" of piston to deck clearance. And getting a slightly thinner headgasket would make me feel better. (Not that my inclination has any merit what so ever, haha. But it makes sense.) I'll do a bit of research and hopefully order new gaskets this week.

Finishing this job will be carb selection, what do you have planned?

I already made this decision months ago because I'm impulsive. I have CR26 Specials in my possession. So I have to make adapter spigots that fit the 650 head insulators. Got to find some aluminum stock!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1298 on: January 31, 2017, 01:55:18 PM »
Whoa, I don't see how I missed this email exchange with Mike, but back in October he recommended .010" base gasket with a .030" head gasket. But with mocking up and checking to be sure, obviously. For some reason I thought that asking Buzz at Dynoman was the right move which is why I got the .051" to begin with. Not sure where my head was. And I actually just ordered the .010" RCS base and .040" MLS head gasket...hmmm

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1299 on: January 31, 2017, 02:18:49 PM »
That will work well. If you think the gaskets will pull down a tad under torque, then that 0.033" (gasket & 3 thou below deck) shrinks a little, and that is too tight for stock rods.