Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Wow, that’s awesome. I’ll look into that more.

I can imagine with a lightened/knife edged crank, hotter cam, balanced and lightened rods and a meticulous dyno tune he’d get 80hp. But that is a lot and maybe I want to spend more time at the dyno, haha. Thanks for sharing!

P.S. I was hoping you were going to say he had ignition overheating issues and he solved it! Haha!

I'm still curious as to what "our" spec motors will produce power/torque-wise. 

As I recall, you and Cam were toying with using a vented points cover to cool the C5 ignition, correct? 

[DaveBarbier]

Wow, that’s awesome. I’ll look into that more.

I can imagine with a lightened/knife edged crank, hotter cam, balanced and lightened rods and a meticulous dyno tune he’d get 80hp. But that is a lot and maybe I want to spend more time at the dyno, haha. Thanks for sharing!

P.S. I was hoping you were going to say he had ignition overheating issues and he solved it! Haha!

I'm still curious as to what "our" spec motors will produce power/torque-wise. 

As I recall, you and Cam were toying with using a vented points cover to cool the C5 ignition, correct?

At Harry’s Machine Parts up in Mass near MRieck’s place I got 69.6HP / 42.8 lb/ft and at Dyno Solutions near my house I got 63.4HP / 39.7 lb/ft.

So I’d say somewhere in between. The Dyno Solutions place has newer software. But the bike is not dialed in perfectly, which I want to do but finding a closer dyno that can tune these carbs the right way is hard to find. I would go up to Rick again but it would be nice if he had a large assortment of jets and needles that we can pick and choose from. Buying all this brass gets expensive.

And yes, I bought another ignition cover to vent when I get this problem in the summer. Right now it’s not a problem. Only above 90°F or so.

[Nicklopic]

Wow, that’s awesome. I’ll look into that more.

I can imagine with a lightened/knife edged crank, hotter cam, balanced and lightened rods and a meticulous dyno tune he’d get 80hp. But that is a lot and maybe I want to spend more time at the dyno, haha. Thanks for sharing!

P.S. I was hoping you were going to say he had ignition overheating issues and he solved it! Haha!

I'm still curious as to what "our" spec motors will produce power/torque-wise. 

As I recall, you and Cam were toying with using a vented points cover to cool the C5 ignition, correct?

At Harry’s Machine Parts up in Mass near MRieck’s place I got 69.6HP / 42.8 lb/ft and at Dyno Solutions near my house I got 63.4HP / 39.7 lb/ft.

So I’d say somewhere in between. The Dyno Solutions place has newer software. But the bike is not dialed in perfectly, which I want to do but finding a closer dyno that can tune these carbs the right way is hard to find. I would go up to Rick again but it would be nice if he had a large assortment of jets and needles that we can pick and choose from. Buying all this brass gets expensive.

And yes, I bought another ignition cover to vent when I get this problem in the summer. Right now it’s not a problem. Only above 90°F or so.

What do you guys run into when they burn up? I have a c5 ignition on my 650 but didn't install or ride it until October of last year. Are they overheating and frying or just cutting out on you? Im on long island so its not like its over 90 all the time but it definitely hits that from time to time

[DaveBarbier]

Wow, that’s awesome. I’ll look into that more.

I can imagine with a lightened/knife edged crank, hotter cam, balanced and lightened rods and a meticulous dyno tune he’d get 80hp. But that is a lot and maybe I want to spend more time at the dyno, haha. Thanks for sharing!

P.S. I was hoping you were going to say he had ignition overheating issues and he solved it! Haha!

I'm still curious as to what "our" spec motors will produce power/torque-wise. 

As I recall, you and Cam were toying with using a vented points cover to cool the C5 ignition, correct?

At Harry’s Machine Parts up in Mass near MRieck’s place I got 69.6HP / 42.8 lb/ft and at Dyno Solutions near my house I got 63.4HP / 39.7 lb/ft.

So I’d say somewhere in between. The Dyno Solutions place has newer software. But the bike is not dialed in perfectly, which I want to do but finding a closer dyno that can tune these carbs the right way is hard to find. I would go up to Rick again but it would be nice if he had a large assortment of jets and needles that we can pick and choose from. Buying all this brass gets expensive.

And yes, I bought another ignition cover to vent when I get this problem in the summer. Right now it’s not a problem. Only above 90°F or so.

What do you guys run into when they burn up? I have a c5 ignition on my 650 but didn't install or ride it until October of last year. Are they overheating and frying or just cutting out on you? Im on long island so its not like its over 90 all the time but it definitely hits that from time to time

For me, and another member I believe, it just cuts out. I’ll be riding for like an hour or maybe more, I forget, and then the bike acts like cylinders are cutting out until they all cut out. It’s crazy, because on a certain route I like to take it happens in almost the exact same place. Right when I’m riding over I84 in Sandyhook, Newtown. Then, when I pull off the road into the same parking lot of Cave Comics and wait about 5 minutes...the bike starts right back up and I ride away fine.

It would be awesome for you to install it and then see if you have the same issue.

Which coils do you have with them? Can you snap a picture? About a year ago they switched coils and I and that same other member have the old kind. Not sure if that’s the culprit or not. Hope not as a vented ignition cover wouldn’t help.

[Nicklopic]

Im 90% sure I have the newer style coils. I ordered it sometime in I think August or September and got it mid October.
Other than the sticker on the module getting peeled off and sucked into the optic trigger completely killing spark until I removed it lol it hasn't given me an issue but I only got to ride on cooler days, 32° the lowest to tops like 70°

[DaveBarbier]

Those are the older style like mine. These are the newer style, which member AlekStooge has.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158001.msg2030266.html#msg2030266

I could be wrong, but I’m assuming the coils in the link are newer because they’re very different and Alek bought them, I think, October 2018. He has a 550 but the ignition is the same for the 650 but has a different plate of course.

[Nicklopic]

That's odd, according to the pictures on his site my coils look to be the more recent ones however he doesn't show what was shipping with any older units. We also got our ignitions at pretty much the same time so it's off we both have different coils like that

[DaveBarbier]

That's odd, according to the pictures on his site my coils look to be the more recent ones however he doesn't show what was shipping with any older units. We also got our ignitions at pretty much the same time so it's off we both have different coils like that

Yeah, that’s weird. Unless Alek got the new batch right when they came out. But either way, it doesn’t really matter. Hope they’re not the problem.

Also, I looked back in my thread and saw that the issue was happening at 90°F and up. And I was never able to confirm that ignition was cutting out. Every time I went out for a test it was below 90° so it would ride smoothly. What you’ll want to do is bring a new spark plug with you and if this problem happens, quickly pull over, pop off the #1 plug cap, plug the new spark plug in, hold it against the case and crank the motor. I’m looking for a no spark situation. Also test the #2 so you test both coils. That’s what I plan to do. Then I’ll do another test ride with the ignition cover removed completely and see if that cures it.

[DaveBarbier]

And hey guys, is Twinline Motorcycles in the PNW permanently closed?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

And hey guys, is Twinline Motorcycles in the PNW permanently closed?

Yes. It is now run out of Ian Halcott’s ranch in Ellensburg, WA for limited custom builds.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Dave,

Dave Hargreaves who operated Cerberus Moto in San Diego had a similar issue with his CB750.

After discussing with C5, he was told to run a vented cover. Since then he hasn’t had problems. Note: his C5 ignition was showing signs of overheating (warping etc.).

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks for the info Don. Yeah I was just curious about Twinline. I was going back in my thread and saw you posted some info about them. I googled them and it says they’re closed.

Interesting about the vented cover. I spoke to Dave from C5 a number of times and he never mentioned them overheating. Only time will tell. Also that expanded metal looks a bit “holy” to me. I’d want something a little finer. Don’t want sand and crap getting into that optical sensor.

[dave500]

#$%* if ya gotta have holes to stop it overheating how good is the thing in the first place?just let a whole lotta rain get in there now?just run a boyer unit,optical stuff is unreliable anyway and never used from factory,its old fashioned now,was new once but hall effect or inductive pick ups are the norm.

[DaveBarbier]

I see your point Dave. Maybe the C5 isn’t a great option because of it’s possible sensitivity to heat. And slapping it on the side of an internal combustion engine might not be the best place for it. Assuming my problem IS actually the C5 over heating. Haven’t actually determined that yet, still in the testing phase. But if my problem is cured with venting the ignition cover and the C5 performs as designed, does that mean that it will always be on the brink of almost over heating? What will that do to the longevity of the unit?

[DaveBarbier]

Vented a spare ignition cover. I’ll install this and maybe do some tests in the summer. But I’m thinking I’ll just run this and if I don’t have any issues on hot days then I’ll call it cured.

Used Pliobond. Stuff’s pretty good.

[h.lanooy]

I've got a C5 ignition also on a CB 650 CafeRacer.
I also have/had issues. On my bike it was one of the coils that caused problems. Always the same coil!
I must admit, I ran them on a switched 12V sources, contrary to what the manual says.
This one coil got heated so much even smoke came out of it.
After cooling of a bit (between 15 to 20 minutes) I could ride again.
A couple of weeks ago I did not stop the bike when the issue arose. I kept going on two cilinders.
I did this for about 5 to 6 kilometers. By the time I arrived at my destination, there was so much smoke coming from the coil that my relatives thaught the bike was on fire.
The coil was completely toasted. I had the older type coils (the wiring coming out of it). Right now I have the newer type with screw terminals.
The C5 ignition is sensitve to voltage spikes the old reg/rec from these bikes.
Right now I installed a dc-dc voltage stabilizer as powersource for the coils. They get 12V, nothing more than that.

My bike:


One of the coils:


These type of coils are the correct ones for 4 cilinder engines like ours. Check the PowerArc site for more info. The C5 ignitions are PowerArc ignitions. I'm very pleased still with the C5 and Paul.

Kind regards from far away (the Netherlands).

Herbert (jueby)

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks Herbert, I have the same coils as in your picture. I also like the C5 and Paul is a stand up guy. Even talking with me on the phone a couple times and helping him with making new plates for the 650. I hope this vented cover will do the trick. If not, well, you’ll all hear about it.

[Godffery]

 I hope I'm not rehashing something that has already been discussed, But...
I have found that optimum coil ohms very between bikes. For example; the 750 perform more reliably with the 3 ohm, and 5 ohm for the 550.  (at least when running Dynatek for both)
That being said, I have no idea what would be best on the 650 running a C5.    Just thinking out loud...?

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Paul at C5 recommends these coils on both because the duration of the spark is shorter than a Dyna style ignition. He mentioned that he thinks the overheating issue is voltage regulator problem.

[Godffery]

Paul at C5 recommends these coils on both because the duration of the spark is shorter than a Dyna style ignition. He mentioned that he thinks the overheating issue is voltage regulator problem.

Are you running the stock one or one from Rick's?   

[DaveBarbier]

Paul at C5 recommends these coils on both because the duration of the spark is shorter than a Dyna style ignition. He mentioned that he thinks the overheating issue is voltage regulator problem.

Does he? When did he say that? I haven’t measured the voltage right at the plate or coils when this problem occurs, but the bolt meter on my gauge is rock solid. I can’t remember what voltage exactly but it’s totally safe. 

[DaveBarbier]

Paul at C5 recommends these coils on both because the duration of the spark is shorter than a Dyna style ignition. He mentioned that he thinks the overheating issue is voltage regulator problem.

Are you running the stock one or one from Rick's?

I’m running a completely custom wiring harness with a Rick’s Reg/Rec.

[DaveBarbier]

I hope I'm not rehashing something that has already been discussed, But...
I have found that optimum coil ohms very between bikes. For example; the 750 perform more reliably with the 3 ohm, and 5 ohm for the 550.  (at least when running Dynatek for both)
That being said, I have no idea what would be best on the 650 running a C5.    Just thinking out loud...?

The reason for this would be just because of the generator/alternator output?

[h.lanooy]

The C5 (PowerArc) ignition sends 3 triggers signals to the coil. The supplied coils from C5 (again, PowerArc) can handle this. Stock coils can’t. I think Dyna coils couldn’t neither.

Paul is very open about this and warns that the coils are sensitive to voltage spikes. These spikes happen very fast, miliseconds maybe. A voltage meter wouldn’t catch them I recon.
But the coils react to it.
On my bike the trigger itself never showed problems. I mean, I don’t see any warping of the plate or something like that.
It was one coil that malfunctioned.

See pics below:




You can see the swelling from the heat. Exact same pics on C5 site of coils that malfunction due to bad witing or voltage spikes.

[DaveBarbier]

And with your voltage stabilizer you haven’t had any issues since? I assume you replaced the coil with another one of the same. Did Paul send you a coil for free?

So above, Don mentioned someone with a 750 had a heat related problem with the plate. Visible warping. And also you’ve had issues with the coil letting the smoke out. That doesn’t seem good for the C5.

The issue with the 650’s seem pretty consistent. Another member Cam also is experiencing the same thing. I don’t think I know about a 650 with a C5 that’s actually working.