Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

Herbert, what regulator/rectifier were you using? The regulator part doesn’t stabilize the voltage enough? The voltage may spike, but it should stay within the set limit of the reg/rec. which I’d imaging should be completely safe for the coils. Do we know how sensitive the C5 coils are? Like how high is too high of a spike?

Wait, I’m stupid. The coils are wired directly to the battery so the reg/rec isn’t used.

Can you share more info on your voltage stabilizer? Link or pictures?

[h.lanooy]

I’m running the stock reg/rec on my bike.
Since I swapped the coils and added the voltage stabilizer I just had one ride. Thus one ride was more distance than any other one I had before. Only difference, it rained, alot! I’m never riding my bike in the rain again. It wasn’t planned, to ride in the rain, since I’ve got no mudguards on my bike. I’m never ever riding in the rain again.
As soon as the weather allows it and the temp is higher, I’ll take it out fot a long ride.
I’ll keep you guys posted on any development.
I must say, I didn’t follow the instructions as mentioned by Paul. I fed the coils from a switched 12V source. And grounded them on the frame.  Since I didn’t follow the very detailed instructions I feel it is my fault the malfunction occurred in the first place.

I’m still happy with the C5 ignition. Cold starts are no problem for my bike. With the stock ignition it was different. If in the future this happens to change I’m going for a Dyna 2000 set. These can be made to fit a CB650.

[h.lanooy]

I got the voltage stabilizer from Paul.
It’s a DC-DC converter/stabilizer.
Input from 8 - 40 V and output is 12V / 6amps.

[h.lanooy]

I want to remark that chances are I’m not gonna get the high ambient temperatures you guys mentioned.
In the Netherlands it rarely gets above 77 degrees F (that’s 25 degrees C).
Right now it’s about 50 F outside. Rainy weather. As soon as there is a rainless day I’ll take the bike out and post back

[h.lanooy]

As for the voltage stabilizer, this is the one I got from Paul:



If you search for the make, you’ll find that it comes in a variety of output ranges. Starting at 3 amps.

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks Herbert, I was actually going to ask this morning if you could post more info on it, haha.

I’m still not totally clear on where this would actually go. Does it stabilize the voltage of the power to the coils from the battery? Does it connect to the ignition plate’s power source? Does it go in between the plate and coils in the signal wire?

[flatlander]

I’m never riding my bike in the rain again. It wasn’t planned, to ride in the rain, since I’ve got no mudguards on my bike. I’m never ever riding in the rain again.

are you sure you live in the netherlands? 

[DaveBarbier]

I spoke to Paul at C5 and he reiterated what was posted above by h.lanooy

On C5’s website it mentions using the 12 volt DC converter but really only says it’s needed if you have a factory regulator. Or if you have a reg/rec that’s failing. Both can output voltage higher than these coils want. I have a new Rick’s unit so I thought I was in the clear.

C5’s website about coil failures:
http://www.c5ignitions.com/troubleshooting.html

From Paul:
”The issue is Ricks (according to their own website) outputs 14.8 volts... at least on the Kawasaki twins.
That is not acceptable voltage and if we made our ignition operate at almost 15 volts then on a cold day if your battery was a bit low as you tried starting it, the ignition would not fire. That is a common issue with some of our competitors products. Even MSD has a bad reputation among tractor pullers for not starting or misfiring upon start up.

So to avoid broken cranks and starter clutches, we try to split the difference. That means a 12 volt system should operate at less than 14 volts. When you push it, things overheat. These are high performance coils that saturate VERY fast. Anyone running 15 volts should either install a better regulator or use the DC-DC converter and knock it back down to about 12.5 which is exactly what we do.

So to summarize everyones issue you can either use older I-core coils that sometimes tolerate high voltage but won't produce efficient secondary voltage to the spark plug.... or you can fix the high voltage input and let your coils live a long and happy life.”

I’m going to get the DC converter and try that out. It’s still weird that on cool days the problem doesn’t show up. Does that mean the coils are heating up but the cooler air is preventing it from failing? That seems so unlikely. I guess I’m right at the cusp of over heating coils. Like right on the edge where a few degrees F higher and the coils fail but cooler and they’re fine.

If I can get away from using the vented cover I’d be happy. I prefer the OEM look.

[h.lanooy]

Thanks Herbert, I was actually going to ask this morning if you could post more info on it, haha.

I’m still not totally clear on where this would actually go. Does it stabilize the voltage of the power to the coils from the battery? Does it connect to the ignition plate’s power source? Does it go in between the plate and coils in the signal wire?

The converter is hooked up to the battery (bkack and red wire on the converter).
The coils and ignition plates to the output side of the converter (black and yellow).
To be safe, run the power from the converter or from the battery to converter through a switch. This can be your killswitch, wich you already have.

[h.lanooy]

I’m never riding my bike in the rain again. It wasn’t planned, to ride in the rain, since I’ve got no mudguards on my bike. I’m never ever riding in the rain again.

are you sure you live in the netherlands? 

Exactly why I don’t get to ride so much

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks Herbert, I was actually going to ask this morning if you could post more info on it, haha.

I’m still not totally clear on where this would actually go. Does it stabilize the voltage of the power to the coils from the battery? Does it connect to the ignition plate’s power source? Does it go in between the plate and coils in the signal wire?

The converter is hooked up to the battery (bkack and red wire on the converter).
The coils and ignition plates to the output side of the converter (black and yellow).
To be safe, run the power from the converter or from the battery to converter through a switch. This can be your killswitch, wich you already have.

Hmm ok. So both the ignition plate and the coils need the stabilizer power. I wonder why the plate needs it. It seems only the coils are the sensitive piece to the puzzle.

Thanks for this, you’ve been a big help in shedding more light on this problem. I guess I’m saying I’m glad your coil exploded so you could have the info to help me, haha.

[h.lanooy]

Thanks Herbert, I was actually going to ask this morning if you could post more info on it, haha.

I’m still not totally clear on where this would actually go. Does it stabilize the voltage of the power to the coils from the battery? Does it connect to the ignition plate’s power source? Does it go in between the plate and coils in the signal wire?

The converter is hooked up to the battery (bkack and red wire on the converter).
The coils and ignition plates to the output side of the converter (black and yellow).
To be safe, run the power from the converter or from the battery to converter through a switch. This can be your killswitch, wich you already have.

Hmm ok. So both the ignition plate and the coils need the stabilizer power. I wonder why the plate needs it. It seems only the coils are the sensitive piece to the puzzle.

Thanks for this, you’ve been a big help in shedding more light on this problem. I guess I’m saying I’m glad your coil exploded so you could have the info to help me, haha.

Actually I’m only running the coils from the stabilizer. The plate itself gets its power from a switched 12V source.
I wasn’t happy with the stabilizer on constant power from the battery. I’m using a relay so it only gets power from the battery when ignition is switched on. Like you, I’m running a Motogadget mUnit and mLock. A motoscope pro as dash and mblaze discs as indicators up front.

[DaveBarbier]

Thanks Herbert, I was actually going to ask this morning if you could post more info on it, haha.

I’m still not totally clear on where this would actually go. Does it stabilize the voltage of the power to the coils from the battery? Does it connect to the ignition plate’s power source? Does it go in between the plate and coils in the signal wire?

The converter is hooked up to the battery (bkack and red wire on the converter).
The coils and ignition plates to the output side of the converter (black and yellow).
To be safe, run the power from the converter or from the battery to converter through a switch. This can be your killswitch, wich you already have.

Hmm ok. So both the ignition plate and the coils need the stabilizer power. I wonder why the plate needs it. It seems only the coils are the sensitive piece to the puzzle.

Thanks for this, you’ve been a big help in shedding more light on this problem. I guess I’m saying I’m glad your coil exploded so you could have the info to help me, haha.

Actually I’m only running the coils from the stabilizer. The plate itself gets its power from a switched 12V source.
I wasn’t happy with the stabilizer on constant power from the battery. I’m using a relay so it only gets power from the battery when ignition is switched on. Like you, I’m running a Motogadget mUnit and mLock. A motoscope pro as dash and mblaze discs as indicators up front.

Oh ok, I see what you’re saying. I’ll just defer to Paul. He strongly recommends the coils aren’t on switched power so I’ll probably end up doing that.

[h.lanooy]

Paul recommends in case you end up using the converter/stabilizer to use a switch in between. Just like your kill switch.
I just didn’t like the idea that if I’d forget to flip the kill switch the power would be on for the coils. That’s why I have the stabilizer fed through a relay. Ignition off means no power to stabilizer, thus no power on coils.
Ignition ON, power to the stabilizer, witch feeds the coils. And still, with ignition ON, I can kill the power to the coils with the killswitch, just like a standard bike.

[DaveBarbier]

Then with an MU, you could simply power both the coils and ignition from IGN or AUX and ignore the stabilizer. The power output from these ports is stabilized already. They are switched power, but stable, so I’m not sure I understand Paul’s position on this. I can see the point if the coils/ignition are wired through a Reg/Rec (terrible idea for so many reasons) but not clear to me why powering them through a relay that is switched is any different (except for the aforementioned stabilizer).

Seems like a component in search of a problem.

I’ll have to do tests to see what the voltage off the IGN or AUX is. It can be stable but still higher than these coils operate between, which is 11-14 volts. Any higher and they have problems.

[DaveBarbier]

I’ve done those tests. I’ve never seen higher than 12.6v

Just tested and I’m getting no less than 14.25 volts at idle, raising up to about 14.37 volts at about 6k RPM. Checked both AUX and LOCK.

[DaveBarbier]

If that’s so, then the 650 motor puts an awfully high voltage at idle, or you’ve got a charging problem. The LOCK port should only see a 12v source from the battery (via M-Lock for those who use it). The output of AUX and IGN should be less than .5v from battery.

Curious how you have things wired up there, Dave?

It would make sense that the 650 puts out higher voltage than the other SOHC4s. So far other than Don’s post of the guy with a 750 who had a warped ignition plate, only issues I’ve ever heard of have been with 650’s. I’ve only heard of three actual cases though. Mine, Herbert’s and Cam’s.

Not really hard to wire the m-Unit up. I don’t know what one could do differently. Power to the +12v input right below the AUX terminal. From there the m-Unit is powered up and delivers power to the rest of the terminals. Can’t adjust anything inside the m-Unit. Are you saying it’s possible to hook up other things incorrectly which will make the m-Unit output higher voltage than it’s supposed to?

Herbert, can you check your voltage at the AUX port with the bike running? Idle and about 5k RPM? Cam, I believe you also have an m-Unit, can you check yours too?

[h.lanooy]

I’ll check on my end and post the results.

[DaveBarbier]

On a side note, I was checking things out and I see this:




This is the fuse for my reg/rec +12 volt supply. It’s a 30amp fuse and it’s not blown. The plastic around it is completely melted though. What the hell?

Edit: I said 12 volt supply but actually it’s the charging wire...right? The only wire connected to the battery from the reg/rec is to recharge the battery, right?

Also, unsurprisingly the connector itself is melty as well.

[DaveBarbier]

Are you using M-Lock or keyed ignition? Power supply to the MU does not power the unit up. LOCK triggers the unit on.

m-Lock. Right, the power is always there but the Lock turns the unit on. My choice of words was poor.

[DaveBarbier]

I’m now thinking it’s possible the voltage set point of Rick’s reg/rec is too high for my situation. It’s something like 14.7 volts. And I see on Rick’s website there’s a new reg/rec designed specifically for LiFe batteries like my Shorai. ALSO, Paul says one of the fixes for the coil damage is getting a new mosfet style reg/rec and the new Rick’s unit is. But it still says it’s output is 14.2 volts. Jeepers creepers this is frustrating, haha.

[MRieck]

 I find it interesting I have an Anders 600 FZR 600 system om my CB750 bike and it pumps 14.5 or so at idle.....no problems. I do run a Dyna 2000 with rely to the coils.....no probs.

[DaveBarbier]

I find it interesting I have an Anders 600 FZR 600 system om my CB750 bike and it pumps 14.5 or so at idle.....no problems. I do run a Dyna 2000 with rely to the coils.....no probs.

Paul says those coils run at a higher voltage setting. He could make the C5’s operate at those voltages but that would make cold starting harder. Apparently.

[DaveBarbier]

On a side note, I was checking things out and I see this:




This is the fuse for my reg/rec +12 volt supply. It’s a 30amp fuse and it’s not blown. The plastic around it is completely melted though. What the hell?

Edit: I said 12 volt supply but actually it’s the charging wire...right? The only wire connected to the battery from the reg/rec is to recharge the battery, right?

Also, unsurprisingly the connector itself is melty as well.

In searching online, a melted fuse/fuse holder but an intact fuse usually points to a fuse not making good contact with the holder. That one holder is flapping around a little, so I’ll come up with a more solid alternative.

[h.lanooy]

I can confirm that from 1500 rpm and higher I get a steady 14,8V on the AUX from the mUnit.
My conclusion is that the mUnit gives what it receives on it’s own input. No regulation or stabilizing function there.