Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[h.lanooy]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

That makes sense, I had good feeling power with the C5 and now power feels a little less with the Dyna. 40° vs 28.5° full advance. I’ll advance it some more and see what I come up with.

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

Oh and thanks for the info and offer to send the curves, but it’s only windows software and I’m a Mac guy. Plus, I don’t have the C5 anymore so it’s not like I can use it, haha.

[h.lanooy]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

Oh and thanks for the info and offer to send the curves, but it’s only windows software and I’m a Mac guy. Plus, I don’t have the C5 anymore so it’s not like I can use it, haha.

Then screenshots? I’ll send you screenshots of the original curves and the one I’m using succesfully. Of course a lot depends on factors like gasoline octane, outside temperature etc

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.

My bike wasn’t going past 6000 rpm. A Belgian owner, also a CB650, had these issues when he switched to C5. He had another ignition type, with a good running bike. When only the ignition was swapped, thus C5 went in, the bike showed problems. Both Paul and de powerarc preople told him it was running lean. That was the cause. He thought it was the advance. I proved him right. The nr 1 map has an advance of 40 degrees. If you download the software from powerarc I can send you the ignition curves. You can see for yourself.

Oh and thanks for the info and offer to send the curves, but it’s only windows software and I’m a Mac guy. Plus, I don’t have the C5 anymore so it’s not like I can use it, haha.

Then screenshots? I’ll send you screenshots of the original curves and the one I’m using succesfully. Of course a lot depends on factors like gasoline octane, outside temperature etc

Ok cool, that works. Thanks for the help!

[DaveBarbier]

So I advanced my ignition 10° to try and mimic what the C5 is and the bike is acting the same. Rides well but still slightly less power than before. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m losing like 5-8 hp. I should probably just wait for the dyno but I might retard it a bit so it’s about 5° advanced from stock, not 10°.

Also still has that rough idle that needs like 1700-2000 rpm to keep steady. Despite the C5 totally failing on me a dozen times it ran stronger and smoother than the Dyna currently is.

Paul from C5 emailed me saying he tested my pickup module and he couldn’t get it to load timing maps so he sent it off to PowerArc  for testing. If they send me back a confirmed working unit I might try that again.

[DaveBarbier]

Ok hold on, I retarded it a bit and I got noticeable power...checking with degree wheel what I moved it to. Progress!

[DaveBarbier]

Finally got time to check where my advance currently is set. Before with reduced power I was at 48.5° or 38.5° if you go by the proper way to describe total advance. Still strange to me that you subtract the idle setting from the advance to get actual advance. Strange.

But anyway, on the ride I ended up only retarding the advance by 2.5° to 46° and it gave noticeable power. Amazing what 2.5° can do. I’ll ride tomorrow (I’m drinking now) after retarding a bit more. I’ll say 2° more to 44° and see what that does. Then to the dyno on Friday if they’re open.

[h.lanooy]

I also have an update on the C5 ignition.
Seems the 40 degrees advance wasn’t the issue with mine.
Long story short, with 3 sparks my bike would only reach 6K rpm. With 2 sparks or just only 1 it climbs to redline. The 4 different advance curves (maps) don’t show a performance difference I can feel when riding. Also no notable difference between 2 or 1 spark.
Maybe on a dyno.
Right now I’m riding with the 40 degree advance curve, switching between 2 and 1 spark.

[DaveBarbier]

Ah interesting. I didn’t know you could alter the three spark with the programming.

[h.lanooy]

Oh yes,  you can program the ignition as you wish, the number of sparks, between 1 to 3. How the advance per spark is and the coil saturation (dwell). And this can be done for all 4 maps.

[flatlander]

I’ll ride tomorrow (I’m drinking now) after retarding a bit more.

the more you drink, the more you retard 

[DaveBarbier]

I’ll ride tomorrow (I’m drinking now) after retarding a bit more.

the more you drink, the more you retard 

So true!

[h.lanooy]

@dave: you used a Dyna S plate and Duna Coils. Wich dyna coils? The 5 or 3 ohms coils? And no need for the cdi units? Just wiri up ignition plate to coils?

[DaveBarbier]

@dave: you used a Dyna S plate and Duna Coils. Wich dyna coils? The 5 or 3 ohms coils? And no need for the cdi units? Just wiri up ignition plate to coils?

3.0 Ohm Coil Set DC1-1
DS1-2 Ignition
DW-200 Plug Wire Kit

If you scroll up to the post #2330 there’s a write up on what I bought and how I fit it. No need for the 650 spark units (The 650 actually uses a transistorized ignition, not a CDI.) And can’t use the Dyna S plate, I made my own.

Pretty much just wire it up pretending you’ve got a 750. Plate wired directly to coils as it says in the Dyna directions.

[DaveBarbier]

Done with ignition. 36.5° total advance and it pulls great. Idle setting is about 8° and I think it’s more stable. I’ll have to test some more of course. Always testing.

Almost 68hp and that’s with this new DynoJet software which I’m told is not generous at all. Rick’s up in Mass would probably show between 70-75hp. I’m happy and I think the bike is done for now!!! There’s always the rear disk conversion though.

[RAFster122s]

Congrats Dave!
David

[DaveBarbier]

Congrats Dave!
David

Thanks David!
Dave

[flatlander]

nice result! i suppose all that beer drinking helped 

[h.lanooy]

Congrats Dave!
I wonder if you kept the original ignition, the factory one, if there would be a notable difference in power.

I'm really contemplating putting back the stock ignition and remove the C5.
Before I had the DC-DC converter I had a coil malfunction and destroyed.
After installing the DC-DC converter I discovered that with 3 sparks the bike wasn't going into high revs.
With one or two sparks it got to redline. I changed my curves to get the three sparks closer together and went for a testride. Came back home on two cilinders because of antoher coil malfunction. Replaced it with the last spare I had. Put back curves with only one spark. Up to now I get the best results with one spark. With that in mind I don't see any advantages other than to be able to switch between advance curves.
In the coming weeks I'm gonna put back the stock ignition and coils. I don't want any more drama and just enjoy riding without having doubts if I'm getting home one 4 or 2 cilinders.

[DaveBarbier]

nice result! i suppose all that beer drinking helped 

It HAS to be the driving force. I think I should do some thorough testing on that too, haha.

[DaveBarbier]

Congrats Dave!
I wonder if you kept the original ignition, the factory one, if there would be a notable difference in power.

I'm really contemplating putting back the stock ignition and remove the C5.
Before I had the DC-DC converter I had a coil malfunction and destroyed.
After installing the DC-DC converter I discovered that with 3 sparks the bike wasn't going into high revs.
With one or two sparks it got to redline. I changed my curves to get the three sparks closer together and went for a testride. Came back home on two cilinders because of antoher coil malfunction. Replaced it with the last spare I had. Put back curves with only one spark. Up to now I get the best results with one spark. With that in mind I don't see any advantages other than to be able to switch between advance curves.
In the coming weeks I'm gonna put back the stock ignition and coils. I don't want any more drama and just enjoy riding without having doubts if I'm getting home one 4 or 2 cilinders.

I wonder too, no idea. My original ignition was shot. This 650 I got was left in the rain and sun with the entire harness exposed for at least 6 years. All block connectors turned to dust. If I were you, I’d give it a try. If you remember I also had high rev issues with the C5 and the dc/dc converter. At the dyno it was breaking up around 9k rpm I think. Bypassing the converter it ran nice and strong to almost 10k.

If you’re curious about the Dyna S, I’m thinking of making some kits to make the 550/750 version fit on our bikes. I might be making a some for some members soon, if you’re interested.

Maybe you saw my post from a little bit ago: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=178212.0

[MRieck]

 Nice #'s David. Now go and enjoy the bike.

[h.lanooy]

I will keep it in my mind, your kit for the Dyna S. Although I would be able to manage the mods myself. In a couple of weeks I’ll replace the C5 with the stock unit. I’ll report back on it.

[DaveBarbier]

Nice #'s David. Now go and enjoy the bike.

Thanks Mike, much appreciated!