Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

Dave,

Are you integrating in the voltage regulator and newer reg/rec with the Dyna S? 

Don

No, I’m not going to use the dc converter I just got from Paul. Only the normal Rick’s reg/rec for the bike. Sucks because that cost $50.

And yeah, dyno Rick Stetson liked the torque curve!

[h.lanooy]

With the Dyna pickup there’s no need for the dc-dc converter.
Just read up that a good solution is the Dyna pickup in combo with late model Honda coils. Seems to be very reliable.

[DaveBarbier]

This weekend was Dyna S weekend. It’s all fitted to the 650 after some modification but it won’t fire up. It turns over and I hear it trying to fire, but only once I got it to run for a couple seconds...albeit poorly. All exhaust headers burned the back of my hand. I feel as if it’s not timed correctly...or maybe spark plug gap isn’t right or the plugs are maybe incorrect. The gap currently is .026” but on the Dyna FAQ is says between .035” and .040”. Stock for the 650 is around .020”. I just read this now so I wasn’t able to play with the gap. The plugs I’m using are the stock D7EA. I timed it statically like the manual says by holding the rotor to the advance position and having my test light come on right when the advance marks are lined up on the case’s witness mark.

Also, the 650 coils from the factory are around 2.5 ohms. Dyna told me to use the 3.0 ohm coils but only after I told them I thought the stock 650 coils were 3.0 ohm. I held a plug up to the engine case and I did notice that the spark isn’t blue but slightly yellowish. Weak spark? Could be from a weak battery? My LiFe battery was getting low because I was trying for a little while. The trickle charger doesn’t charge that fast.

Anyone experience anything similar with their Dyna?

[h.lanooy]

What set did you install since there is no set for the cb650.
With the 550/750 sohc kit you need to switch the pickups at the plate. Otherwise they will feed the wrong cilinder combination. 1-4 would get the signal from 2-3.
Would explain why it runs poorly

[DaveBarbier]

I used the 550/750 set. I don’t think you need to switch the pickups, when I set the timing I can see the 1/4 pickup is the yellow wire and I wired it to the proper coil. Even if that was the case, I would think swapping the blue and yellow trigger wires would do the same thing. The pickups on the plate are identical. BUT, I’m not against trying it, haha. And yes, the plug wires for the coils are going to the correct plugs.

Now, it did run very poorly for a second. Blubbering and very rough. I wouldn’t even think it would run at all if the firing order was wrong. Would it?

[h.lanooy]

I used the 550/750 set. I don’t think you need to switch the pickups, when I set the timing I can see the 1/4 pickup is the yellow wire and I wired it to the proper coil. Even if that was the case, I would think swapping the blue and yellow trigger wires would do the same thing. The pickups on the plate are identical. BUT, I’m not against trying it, haha. And yes, the plug wires for the coils are going to the correct plugs.

Now, it did run very poorly for a second. Blubbering and very rough. I wouldn’t even think it would run at all if the firing order was wrong. Would it?

The 650 shares it’s ignition with the 750 dohc. The 750 dohc has it on the left side of the engine block. That’s why the 1-4 and 2-3 pickups are opposite of the cb550/750 sohc. Switching only the witing does the trick also. Just remember that you did switch them. And the engine would start and run poorly.
I have repair manuals of all three models, 550, 650 and 750 dohc. I will send pics of the pickups of all three later on today. Right now out shopping with my better half.

[DaveBarbier]

I used the 550/750 set. I don’t think you need to switch the pickups, when I set the timing I can see the 1/4 pickup is the yellow wire and I wired it to the proper coil. Even if that was the case, I would think swapping the blue and yellow trigger wires would do the same thing. The pickups on the plate are identical. BUT, I’m not against trying it, haha. And yes, the plug wires for the coils are going to the correct plugs.

Now, it did run very poorly for a second. Blubbering and very rough. I wouldn’t even think it would run at all if the firing order was wrong. Would it?

The 650 shares it’s ignition with the 750 dohc. The 750 dohc has it on the left side of the engine block. That’s why the 1-4 and 2-3 pickups are opposite of the cb550/750 sohc. Switching only the witing does the trick also. Just remember that you did switch them. And the engine would start and run poorly.
I have repair manuals of all three models, 550, 650 and 750 dohc. I will send pics of the pickups of all three later on today. Right now out shopping with my better half.

Don’t let me get you in trouble, haha. If I have time during the week I’ll double check my wiring but I remember being very careful. I’m going to contact Dyna and see what kind of help they can give considering it’s not for a 650.

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

[h.lanooy]

Check this thread and following post in it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=32097.0

“I just fitted the dyna 2000 pickup rotor to my 650 crank last week. i think i posted about it somewhere else, but anyway:

1) the I.D. of the rotor has to be drilled larger to fit over the mounting stud on the crank. the 550 and 650 use a bolt instead, which is a smaller diameter.

2) the hole on the crank for the locating pin on the back of the dyna backing plate must also be drilled larger.

3) the timing is 180deg. out, so you either need to swap the pickups, or just reverse the wiring somewhere else in the circuit--either reverse the blue and yellow wires to the coils or just reverse the orientation of the coils (2-3 would be on the left, 1-4 on the right).”

As I stated, the ignition is 180 off. Most simple solution is swap the wiring to the coils.

Try that and you’ll see you have a fine running bike

[DaveBarbier]

Check this thread and following post in it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=32097.0

“I just fitted the dyna 2000 pickup rotor to my 650 crank last week. i think i posted about it somewhere else, but anyway:

1) the I.D. of the rotor has to be drilled larger to fit over the mounting stud on the crank. the 550 and 650 use a bolt instead, which is a smaller diameter.

2) the hole on the crank for the locating pin on the back of the dyna backing plate must also be drilled larger.

3) the timing is 180deg. out, so you either need to swap the pickups, or just reverse the wiring somewhere else in the circuit--either reverse the blue and yellow wires to the coils or just reverse the orientation of the coils (2-3 would be on the left, 1-4 on the right).”

As I stated, the ignition is 180 off. Most simple solution is swap the wiring to the coils.

Try that and you’ll see you have a fine running bike

Oh man, I hope it’s this easy. I really don’t see that it’s 180° out but you seem more confident than I am so I must be missing something and I’m not at the bike currently.

I’ll keep you posted.

[h.lanooy]

Try it, no harm done, I’m pretty confident that will help.

About the C5 ignition, I got a tip through a Belgian member, same bike, that like me the bike wouldn’t reach high rpm’s.
He thought it was too much advance. The C5 has 40 degrees  advance. An original cb650 is 10 degrees static and 28 degrees from 2500 rpm.
I have the prgrammer for the ignition, so I lowered the advance to 36 degrees to try it out.
Man, I fell in love all over again with my bike. Runs smoother and feels more powerfull and the speeds I reached just in 2nd gear scared me a bit. Too bad yours died on you.

[DaveBarbier]

Try it, no harm done, I’m pretty confident that will help.

About the C5 ignition, I got a tip through a Belgian member, same bike, that like me the bike wouldn’t reach high rpm’s.
He thought it was too much advance. The C5 has 40 degrees  advance. An original cb650 is 10 degrees static and 28 degrees from 2500 rpm.
I have the prgrammer for the ignition, so I lowered the advance to 36 degrees to try it out.
Man, I fell in love all over again with my bike. Runs smoother and feels more powerfull and the speeds I reached just in 2nd gear scared me a bit. Too bad yours died on you.

I hope so, if it does I’m sending you nudes.

Funny you mention the advance is too much. At the recent dyno trip, we were getting more power the more retarded we set the timing. We were roughly at -5° from the stock C5 advance setting and we made more power but we ran out of adjustment room on the plate, haha.

[h.lanooy]

It’s the advance in the map programming itself. The 1st spark is at 40 degrees, 2nd 25 degrees and 3rd at 10 degrees.
In the programming software I lowered the 1st spark from 40 to 36 degrees. That did the trick.
I didn’t change it by adjusting the plate.

Here the stock C5 curve:


Here the changed curve, with max advance set to 36 degrees

[DaveBarbier]

It’s the advance in the map programming itself. The 1st spark is at 40 degrees, 2nd 25 degrees and 3rd at 10 degrees.
In the programming software I lowered the 1st spark from 40 to 36 degrees. That did the trick.
I didn’t change it by adjusting the plate.

Right, I’m saying that’s what I did at the dyno. I don’t have the program to change the mapping so we did it overall and it helped. So in my case, all points were reduced by about 5°. You have much more control. If you could get to a dyno at do the mapping real time that would be awesome.

Also, I have a decently modified motor so they’ll likely prefer different timing settings.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

[DaveBarbier]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

That’s exactly what’s happening, Don. I remember a couple years ago I over discharged it to like 9 volts but it was able to be recovered. It’s a Shorai LFX14a2 and I have the Shorai charger/tender also so that might have helped. This time, no dice.

They have a 5 year warranty but I’m 20 days over that...hilarious. I’ll see if the warranty covers this and if they’ll accept it. If not, oh well.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

That’s exactly what’s happening, Don. I remember a couple years ago I over discharged it to like 9 volts but it was able to be recovered. It’s a Shorai LFX14a2 and I have the Shorai charger/tender also so that might have helped. This time, no dice.

They have a 5 year warranty but I’m 20 days over that...hilarious. I’ll see if the warranty covers this and if they’ll accept it. If not, oh well.

Shorai has decent customer service.  They might waive your 20 days.  Let them know you've had the issue prior to that time and have been trying to trouble shoot it.

[DaveBarbier]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

That’s exactly what’s happening, Don. I remember a couple years ago I over discharged it to like 9 volts but it was able to be recovered. It’s a Shorai LFX14a2 and I have the Shorai charger/tender also so that might have helped. This time, no dice.

They have a 5 year warranty but I’m 20 days over that...hilarious. I’ll see if the warranty covers this and if they’ll accept it. If not, oh well.

Shorai has decent customer service.  They might waive your 20 days.  Let them know you've had the issue prior to that time and have been trying to trouble shoot it.

I’ll see what they say. I’m not looking for them to bend over backwards but if they decide to do something for me that would be cool. 

[DaveBarbier]

I haven’t tried to start it yet, but I think I figured out why it wasn’t starting. The 650 advance mechanism has two hash marks for idle and also two hash marks for advance, but the advance hashes are just barely visible because they’re under the pivot for the weights. I was accidentally using idle hash marks for the advance setting.

I also might have the wrong firing order as you said, Herbert, but I haven’t confirmed that yet. For sure I’ll check that this weekend.

[DaveBarbier]

Back out to the bike. As I said before I totally missed the advance hash marks. Here is where they are. Not easy to see!



Weird though...in the book it says my idle spark degree is 10° BTDC and I verified that on my degree wheel. But the advance says it’s 28.5° BTDC, but my wheel says 37.5° BTDC. What the hell? I’m sure the book is right and I’m wrong, but I don’t see how I could screw this up. 1/4 TDC lines up to my 0° on my degree wheel, the idle fire point of 10° lines up to my wheel but the advance is way off? Tried this three times and it’s still the same. The wheel isn’t shifting and neither is my pointer and nor is my pointer touching my degree wheel. Same thing I see on 2/3. Super weird. Unless I have the wrong advance mechanism..? Anyway, I’m just going to proceed with the ignition and not worry about anything. But I almost want to mark the 28.5° on the advance mechanism...

[h.lanooy]

If I’m not mistaken, the static advance is 10 degrees BTDC. From around 2k-2,5k rpm the manual states the advance is 28 degrees. In most cases you need to add the static with the total advance to get max advance. That would be 38 degrees in higher rpm’s.
If that’s the case you got it right!

[DaveBarbier]

Oh, so the advance degree is 28° before the static firing...that makes complete sense, haha. Not 28° from TDC. That’s confusing to me, but now that I know it almost seems obvious, haha!

And yes, you can see my picture above that shows the firing points.

[DaveBarbier]

Oh, and Herbert, my ignition plate does not have to be swapped around. Not sure what the other poster was talking about. I almost think he’s mistaken. 1/4 is at TDC and the ignition pickup that’s right online with the magnet on the Dyna rotor is the 1/4 pickup. I follow the wires and it’s going to the 1/4 coil and plug wires are indeed going to the 1/4 cylinders.

[bwaller]

Nice Dyno report Dave. I'm not surprised about retarding ignition lead providing best power. Part of that is tightening squish from original clearance. It just means the chamber is burning more efficiently.

[h.lanooy]

As long as your bike starts and runs OK all is fine.

I got my C5 running better by bringing down the advance. The first map of the C5 curve the advance is 40 degrees. As you go down to map 2, 3 and 4 the advance goes down.
I reprogrammed my curves with map 1 at 36 degrees, map 2 at 34 and map 3 at 32 degrees.
At 40 degrees my bike would not go beyond 6000 rpm's. Like it's running too lean, but my muffler and sparkplugs says it's running too rich.
With 36 degrees it climbs up in revs and my plugs have a better look on them. I got CV carbs with a dynojet kit. The kit comes with 116 main jets. With those my bike wouldn't go past 4k rpm's at 40 degrees. With 118 jets it goes to 6k rpm's.
Now with 36 degrees it goes to redline. I'm gonna try swapping the 118 back to 116 and see how it behaves. It still runs rich.

Since I mounted the dc-dc converter, I have not had any issues. Still not 100% conviced though. When I go for a ride I still take some tools just in case. As I make more miles on it I start trusting it till I get 100% trust.

[DaveBarbier]

Ok so bike ran seemingly well. My issue before was just that the timing was way off. After figuring that out it fires right up. I set the static advance timing as outlined in the Dyna manual and when I checked it dynamically with my strobe it was spot on. I didn’t have to adjust anything which is great.

ONLY issue is that the strobe for the 2/3 seems to be intermittent at advance and shut completely off if I rev it up. I took a video. It starts with me on the cylinder 3 plug wire and you’ll see the strobe flickering weirdly. Then at the 32 second mark I switch the strobe to the cylinder 4 plug wire and you see that it’s nice and smooth.

The bike revs up fine though. If one or two cylinders were dropping out would I hear it as it’s revving up? It’ll be rainy tomorrow but I’ll be out in the shop doing more tests.