Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 340375 times)

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Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #350 on: December 29, 2014, 11:05:09 am »
I know that some years of the 550 are longer than the 750s. If you ascertain that a 74/75 550 arm will work, let me know, I have an extra I can send to you. I might even be persuaded to bead blast it to bare metal first  ;)

Pivot bolts would of course come with it.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #351 on: December 29, 2014, 11:47:38 am »

I know that some years of the 550 are longer than the 750s. If you ascertain that a 74/75 550 arm will work, let me know, I have an extra I can send to you. I might even be persuaded to bead blast it to bare metal first  ;)

Pivot bolts would of course come with it.

Well I'm dealing with only 550's here. Going from 74/75 550 to a 78 550. Not sure what you meant by the 750. But I'll have to check! That would be awesome! PM me your price shipping to 06468...with bead blasting please! Need more convincing? I swear to take good care of it and it would be really swell. I see on ebay a couple that could be shipped to me for under $40. But that's without blasting and the crap shoot that is ebay.

Hopefully Dave could chime in with whether or not they could be swapped. It seems like any research I do I'd still be second guessing myself.

Thanks


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Offline dave500

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #352 on: December 29, 2014, 01:16:13 pm »
all the swing arms interchange,the early arm has open ends on its rear fork the later ones are closed and thinner,youll need the early right hand spacer with the early arm and visa versa they are slightly thicker and thinner,pretty sure the later swingarm spindle is solid and drilling it would be best done by a shop to keep it all square,early arms used the steel bush replaced by a bronze one,the later had a flimsy plastic thing,you can get needle roller kits for them now,ive never bothered replacing the felt washers but grease them each month.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 01:29:41 pm by dave500 »

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #353 on: December 29, 2014, 01:43:41 pm »
Thanks Dave! I JUST sent you a PM. ...disregard that, haha. Strange though, my swing arm has open ends for the axle. Check out the picture of the fische I posted a couple comments back. Any idea if the '78 550k open ends are still thinner than the early ones like you mentioned?


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Offline dave500

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #354 on: December 29, 2014, 02:14:59 pm »
yours is the correct swing arm for that frame,all the open ends are the same thickness,dont use a late bolt with an early swingarm as youll end up with no grease nipple!the other way around you get three!euro models might have an oddball combination?some of those cmsl fishes might be euro specific?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 02:24:43 pm by dave500 »

Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #355 on: December 29, 2014, 04:07:24 pm »
DB - disregard the 750 reference, I was hallucinating. I'll pull one together, blast it up, and shoot you a picture. Probably be Friday before I get that done and out to you.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #356 on: December 29, 2014, 05:58:52 pm »

DB - disregard the 750 reference, I was hallucinating. I'll pull one together, blast it up, and shoot you a picture. Probably be Friday before I get that done and out to you.

Thanks! Just let me know how much you want for it and what the shipping will be. And no problem, Friday is just fine.


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1978 Honda CB550K

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #357 on: January 02, 2015, 11:03:32 am »
Welded on some rearset tabs. Used 3/16ths steel. Hope someone here can tell me that I'm getting better at welding, haha.




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Offline Riceman

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #358 on: January 02, 2015, 11:37:42 am »
Welds aren't half bad 8)
Did you bevel the tabs? If not ,not too big a deal.It's amazing how strong
just a couple of tacks can be.
Try making small circles as you move forward gives it
a simi Tigged look.

Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #359 on: January 02, 2015, 11:56:01 am »
Dave - if you really wan to improve or perfect your technique, take a scrap piece of tubing you've cut from the bike (it's thin walled) and grab some 3/16" scrap. Practice making 2" long beads, skip a space, 2" bead. Then, cut the plate and tube in half and inspect your penetration. If the weld isn't fully penetrating, you're not getting the strength you need.

Too many new welders don't get the heat right and end up laying beads on top of the surfaces, not penetrating the joint. Imagine sweating copper tubing with solder. The heat draws the solder into the joint, not beading it up at the seam  ;)

Also, if you get the tubing too hot, you'll blow holes in it. Tack, skip, tack, skip. Use compressed air intermittently to blow on the metal to keep it from getting too hot. All comes with practice...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #360 on: January 02, 2015, 12:46:10 pm »

Welds aren't half bad 8)
Did you bevel the tabs? If not ,not too big a deal.It's amazing how strong
just a couple of tacks can be.
Try making small circles as you move forward gives it
a simi Tigged look.

The tabs are sitting right on the spine of the tube. Not off center. I guess I could have given it a slight concave bevel but I didn't. I'll try the circles next time or on some scrap.

Thanks!

Dave - if you really wan to improve or perfect your technique, take a scrap piece of tubing you've cut from the bike (it's thin walled) and grab some 3/16" scrap. Practice making 2" long beads, skip a space, 2" bead. Then, cut the plate and tube in half and inspect your penetration. If the weld isn't fully penetrating, you're not getting the strength you need.

Too many new welders don't get the heat right and end up laying beads on top of the surfaces, not penetrating the joint. Imagine sweating copper tubing with solder. The heat draws the solder into the joint, not beading it up at the seam  ;)

Also, if you get the tubing too hot, you'll blow holes in it. Tack, skip, tack, skip. Use compressed air intermittently to blow on the metal to keep it from getting too hot. All comes with practice...

That's exactly what I did last night, haha. Welded it up, the put it in a vice and smacked the hell out of it with a sledge. Didn't budge, but the tab started to bend and the tube started to flatten. I did this just to see how strong it was since I'll be almost putting my whole weight on these sometimes. Then I cut it in half and inspected. I was very satisfied, hope you agree.




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Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #361 on: January 02, 2015, 01:27:51 pm »
Absolutely! Looks perfect, you should be proud.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis


Offline Riceman

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #363 on: January 02, 2015, 04:39:12 pm »
That's about 100% penetration- 8)

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #364 on: January 02, 2015, 05:13:47 pm »

That's about 100% penetration- 8)

Love it. That's my little Lincoln 110 Handy MIG I got for about $300 last month. More a testament to the tool than user probably, haha.


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Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #365 on: January 02, 2015, 05:19:17 pm »
That's about 100% penetration- 8)

Would it be out of place for a "That's what she said" comment here?  ;)
Ron

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #366 on: January 02, 2015, 05:27:16 pm »

That's about 100% penetration- 8)

Would it be out of place for a "That's what she said" comment here?  ;)

No better place than here. Well done, sir. Well done.


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Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #367 on: January 02, 2015, 05:43:56 pm »
That's about 100% penetration- 8)

Would it be out of place for a "That's what she said" comment here?  ;)
You heard him, it's his "little tool" that gets 100% penetration. Sadly, mine won't... :'(
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #368 on: January 02, 2015, 06:17:32 pm »

That's about 100% penetration- 8)

Would it be out of place for a "That's what she said" comment here?  ;)
You heard him, it's his "little tool" that gets 100% penetration. Sadly, mine won't... :'(

Haha, realistically she's being generous by about 50%. But it's ok, I hear it's not the size that matters but the wire feed speed...uh, what?


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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #369 on: January 04, 2015, 07:15:47 pm »
Any place or user here that I can get custom lathe turning done? I was searching around and couldn't find anything. Or maybe a website I can get some lathe stuff done?

For my rearsets it doesn't seem like just a bolt will work to affix the peg to the aluminum bracket. I need something like this that I drew up.


So the threads on the left thread into the aluminum plate. And on the right there is a small threaded hole that a little Allen screw screws into to hold on the peg.

This is how the peg goes together.




Then I can just get a steel collar and bronze bushings that will fit my needs.

Anyone have any better ideas? I want this to be made of stainless steel if possible. I'm just thinking strength. I guess aluminum would be fine too but I just think stainless would be a lot stronger.


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Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #370 on: January 05, 2015, 04:55:16 am »
That type of peg is designed to hang in a clevis, so a mounting bolt isn't needed. What is needed is the toe lever connection to heel peg.

Since you've bought those "pegs" you're driving yourself in a certain direction if you want to use their mounting base, and in my opinion creating a tad tricker design and fab effort.

Your sketch can be simplified. Eliminate the whole threaded rod assembly by a using a standard SS bolt coming thru the back of the plate and into the peg. Between the peg and the plate from the outside, you need the bronze bushing to act as a collar inside the peg, and perhaps a small spacer to move the peg outboard. Also, spinning on that same shaft, you'd create the "ear" that the toe peg (shift side) links to. Unless you plan to create a 2 piece rearset that uses stock type shifter arms and brake arms?

Perhaps you could sketch something up completely and that would help. Also, SS or aluminum are both strong enough. You just need a thicker piece if aluminum. Tube OD is 1" so you've got plenty of surface area to attach to. If you're planning on screwing hate plate to the mouthing tabs on backside of tubes, I'd use 1/2" aluminum billet blocks, milled or cut down. Flat sheet is fine too, but I'd want perhaps 5/8" in aluminum. For SS, 3/16" minimum.

A benefit of using slightly thicker material helps position the rearset "outboard" of the tubes for your ankle to clear the bike. It also helps align the shift side, even still you may need an offset shift arm.

Then you need to work out actuating the brakes and clearing for the kickstarter.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #371 on: January 05, 2015, 06:44:24 am »
Since you've bought those "pegs" you're driving yourself in a certain direction if you want to use their mounting base, and in my opinion creating a tad tricker design and fab effort.

Not using the mounting base, it just came with the peg.

Your sketch can be simplified. Eliminate the whole threaded rod assembly by a using a standard SS bolt coming thru the back of the plate and into the peg. Between the peg and the plate from the outside, you need the bronze bushing to act as a collar inside the peg, and perhaps a small spacer to move the peg outboard. Also, spinning on that same shaft, you'd create the "ear" that the toe peg (shift side) links to.

Yeah, I was thinking that first but then I'd have to tap the peg. Not a big deal but I hope I have a tap that large. I just kind of wanted to use the same "stepped rod" method of attaching the peg.

Unless you plan to create a 2 piece rearset that uses stock type shifter arms and brake arms?

Nope, same piece, just like the picture posted of Kott's.

Perhaps you could sketch something up completely and that would help. Also, SS or aluminum are both strong enough. You just need a thicker piece if aluminum. Tube OD is 1" so you've got plenty of surface area to attach to. If you're planning on screwing hate plate to the mouthing tabs on backside of tubes, I'd use 1/2" aluminum billet blocks, milled or cut down. Flat sheet is fine too, but I'd want perhaps 5/8" in aluminum. For SS, 3/16" minimum.

Kott uses 3/8" aluminum and that's what I have too. Seems plenty thick enough.

Here's a drawing. Hope it's clear enough. I didn't draw the collar with shift linkage tabs. I think that's obvious that it'll go around the purple bronze bearings. And as long as the bronze bearings are touching each other in the center then I'm good. Otherwise, as I tighten the stainless bolt then it'll draw the peg and bearings into the collar locking the assembly up.


I do prefer the single bolt method as to my machined part method just because it's simpler and I can do it at home.

A benefit of using slightly thicker material helps position the rearset "outboard" of the tubes for your ankle to clear the bike. It also helps align the shift side, even still you may need an offset shift arm. Then you need to work out actuating the brakes and clearing for the kickstarter.

Where I welded the tabs the plate will be slightly outboard of the frame. So it seems like it'll work just fine. I'm planning on using an offset shift arm too. Will cross that road later down the line. Clearing the kickstart doesn't seem hard. Worst case I can put a slight bend in the kicker to make it clear. I've seen that done and seems to work fine as long as it's a slight bend. Don't want to put too much lateral force on the kick shaft if I kick it over.

This is how I plan on addressing the brake actuation. One of Kott's bikes.



---
1978 Honda CB550K

Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #372 on: January 05, 2015, 07:05:46 am »
Food for thought...

The peg type you chose, I prefer as it folds up and out of the way (kickstart or crash). If you mount it in the same fashion as Kott (and per your sketch) you lose that feature.

Why not make the collar that holds the shift ear have a clevis end to the peg, and an internal thread from backside? A bit more simple and stronger- the 6mm bolt hold ing peg to clevis mount is insuffcient to be hold your weight full length. Threading the collar from plate side can be a blind tap and then you essentially make a 3 piece mount.

Yep, 3/8" aluminum will work too. Your tab design is similar to what I am doing to my 550, 500 and my R90. Difference is I'm milling billet blocks of aluminum to slip over the tab (think mortise and tenon) with through holes for bolts. But your design will work well too. I'd suggest using M8 mounting bolts though for added strength and blue LocTite. And button head cap screws for a lower profile-
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #373 on: January 05, 2015, 07:39:21 am »

Why not make the collar that holds the shift ear have a clevis end to the peg, and an internal thread from backside? A bit more simple and stronger- the 6mm bolt hold ing peg to clevis mount is insuffcient to be hold your weight full length. Threading the collar from plate side can be a blind tap and then you essentially make a 3 piece mount.

I was thinking about this earlier but I don't quite understand what you mean. Maybe rating up a picture would help.

I'm not going to be using the 6mm bolt. I just plan on having the stainless bolt threaded into the peg.

And besides, even if I did, it won't be holding my weight at all, only keeling it on the shaft. The shaft is holding the weight.

It's hard to explain these kinds of things, haha.


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Offline calj737

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #374 on: January 05, 2015, 10:12:52 am »
I'll sketch something up later and post it
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis