Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 381033 times)

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Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1175 on: October 25, 2016, 07:08:27 AM »
whiskey is medicine!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1176 on: October 25, 2016, 03:12:42 PM »
I know it's not good practice to spin the motor the opposite way, but my motor doesn't even budge going the wrong way. Correct way is perfect and smooth as butter. The wrong way doesn't even go a little. I was worried for a second but I had just installed the starter, which doesn't spin (I'm assuming until it's called upon) so I'm pretty sure that's what's keeping it.

And just for clarity's sake, the correct way means CCW from the stator side.

It's just weird because I've always thought you could spin the motor the other way but it was frowned upon.

Thoughts?

And for fun here's a picture where I'm at so far. The pistons look really nice and once the cylinders go on it'll be mostly hidden. So enjoy while you can!


Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1177 on: November 05, 2016, 09:17:53 AM »
Just doing some mock ups. I found that the head dowels have enough clearance and don't need trimming, but the cam guide needs trimming. I don't think it's due to the machining, but rather that neither the CFM nor MLS head gasket has a relief for the guide. Maybe because they're really designed for the 550? I wasn't about to alter the MLS gasket so I shaved down the guide pins 1mm.





Speaking of the MLS gasket, I got my .051" gasket from Buzz at Dynoman. The gasket looks awesome (I hadn't ever seen one and it just looks cool to me). It all lines up perfectly except the holes for the oil gallery on the ends are too small to allow for the o-ring. Is it normal to not use the o-rings here with MLS gaskets? I do NOT want oil leaks here!

Offline MRieck

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1178 on: November 05, 2016, 10:36:09 AM »
glad the little guy made it over to you safe and sound. i only hope he's not gonna drink all your whiskey like he apparently did with mine!

so that loctite stuff... how does it taste?

Tastes like poison, haha. But then again, whiskey kind of does too...delicious poison.
You're funny Dave. ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1179 on: November 06, 2016, 12:29:27 AM »
yes it does sound very thick. was there a lot taken off the head and cylinder? i have 0.030 in my 550, giving about 0.040 squish.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1180 on: November 06, 2016, 04:36:10 AM »
From what I remember Mike suggested I talk to Buzz and get his recommendation, which was .051". I gave him my measurements and that's what he calculated. Actually, the packaging says .050"

the case milling was -.004", the head milling was -.006" and I have an OEM base gasket which is .020"

That's the info I gave to Buzz. Anything wrong with that, Mike? Hope I didn't give any wrong info.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1181 on: November 06, 2016, 06:01:11 AM »
It all depends on what has been removed from the cylinder. You maybe only removed a few thou, but what about previous owners? As Cal mentioned, the only way to know for certain is to (first) clamp the cylinder and check where the piston is in the bore, then choose a head gasket thickness, assemble and measure (clay or solder) Then either mill further, or select a different base or head gasket thickness to get the clearance you desire. BUT, stock rods/bolts, too tight clearance and a missed shift on a "frisky" ride.........

Mike or Buzz or anyone asked, without knowing for certain, will always give advice on the safe side so the builder doesn't end up tangling moving bits and being angry with that advice.

Be happy Dave, it'll run great.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1182 on: November 06, 2016, 07:09:32 AM »
Ok, thanks for the info, guys. I'll postpone the head gasket stuff until I get the cam and rockers and am able to actually fully assemble the motor and check clearances.

But my question still stands as for the o-rings in the oil ports on the head gasket surface. The MLS gasket has holes too small to accommodate an o-ring. Is it normal to run no o-ring here? The gasket does have an embossed area here for sealing.

Brent, for a couple days I was really considering the top end oil mod you wrote about to eliminate the oil leaks from this area. Maybe some day...

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1183 on: November 06, 2016, 08:21:56 AM »
It's a good mod Dave and then you wouldn't need to worry about any o-ring between head & cylinder. You need to start by tapping a hole for a "blocking" set screw in the outer two oil feeds of the upper case and your cases are already buttoned up so future project.

I expect Cometic didn't plan for an o-ring there with the MLS. Embossed area with viton coated steel should seal. The only one I've used was for an engine with external lines so I'm no further help.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1184 on: November 06, 2016, 10:04:28 AM »
It's a good mod Dave and then you wouldn't need to worry about any o-ring between head & cylinder. You need to start by tapping a hole for a "blocking" set screw in the outer two oil feeds of the upper case and your cases are already buttoned up so future project.

I expect Cometic didn't plan for an o-ring there with the MLS. Embossed area with viton coated steel should seal. The only one I've used was for an engine with external lines so I'm no further help.

Yeah, future project. I've read your post half a dozen times and it seems pretty straight forward. It also looks pretty sweet, haha.

Thanks for the help so far. I'll do some more reading and figure out the head gasket thing at a later date. I don't even have the new cam or rockers yet. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself :)

I still do have the CFM gasket that came with the pistons which is .043"...hmm. Options.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1185 on: November 06, 2016, 11:09:11 AM »
don't overthink it with the options, it boils down to two: the easy quick and safe one, using the .051 gasket. or what brent describes: test-assemble and measure squish with clay or solder, and re-do this after some more milling or with a different gasket until you get close to your ideal.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1186 on: November 06, 2016, 01:31:01 PM »
Well I'd hate to loose compression and power because I didn't feel like being thorough. I also don't really know what "ideal" is. Is .038"-.040" the ideal, like Cal mentioned or is ideal whatever thickness gets me to proper valve-piston clearance?

I was planning on using the clay method anyway just to be sure that clearance is within spec. Now that I think of it, I'm not sure why I got a head gasket so early.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1187 on: November 06, 2016, 02:40:41 PM »
If I may add this Dave, checking clearances is always the right thing to do, especially when using different pistons and cam plus when any decking has been done. Honestly this is part of engine building I find most interesting and rewarding and will leave no unanswered questions.

If you do measure, the piston to head clearance doesn't need a cam installed plus just the top piston ring is enough for this test. If you find from this that the MLS is too thick you can (either replace it) or use a different thickness viton/steel base gasket thickness (0.010 or 0.014" for instance) to allow a little extra piston crown proud of the deck. For a street engine don't run under 0.040" just because of stock rods & bolts. The pistons in my first race job just kissed the head (no damage) with stock rods and new 750F2 upgraded bolts/nuts. This with 0.036" clearance.

To be honest, until I witnessed this personally, I was never certain if OEM rods actually stretch, or if the bolts do, or if perhaps the piston crown "grows" upward. Now with Carrillo rods I run as tight as 0.027" without issue so it's evident rods and/or bolts can stretch a great deal. A missed shift allowing it to rev to the moon is enough. Short story... build ample clearance (1mm minimum) and the effect will be noticable.

Valve/piston clearance checking is most accurate if you use a degree wheel on the crank end and a dial indicator on a valve spring retainer. Setting the crank at different positions (8-10-12 degrees) before or after TDC depending of which valve, gingerly prying the valve open until it touches the piston gives you the exact clearance, far better than fooling with clay.

I didn't want to spew a bunch of crap & pile pressure on, but it sounds like you are leaning this way anyway. Good work, this will be a good engine.

   

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1188 on: November 06, 2016, 05:14:29 PM »
Thanks Brent. And please, pile on the knowledge, I love it! I do well with numbers and procedures and find engine building fascinating, especially in the small but critical details. It's super rewarding doing this work myself. Even though this territory I'm getting into is commonplace, it's still cool. I mean, Don already has his Hot Mess motor together so he went through all this stuff, haha. I'm just lagging behind.

I have watched a lot of videos about finding clearances with the clay method and also the degree wheel method with softer valve springs. I do like the video from Jafromobile on valve clearance. He makes some great videos. I can't quite visualize doing this and getting accurate numbers without a cam installed, but I'll do more reading to clear that up. In any case, I'll probably hold off until I can get a cam and rockers. Hopefully will be able to get them this winter.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1189 on: November 06, 2016, 06:04:35 PM »
For piston/head no cam needed, valve/piston cam installed & timed.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1190 on: November 06, 2016, 06:32:21 PM »
Oh ok, two different measurements...I see what you're saying. Cool, thanks. 

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1191 on: November 06, 2016, 09:29:37 PM »
Dave, sounds like CMSNL or Klaus  Studios really needs to step up and source replacements since they are so hard to find and so low stock.
David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1192 on: November 07, 2016, 04:23:40 AM »
Dave, sounds like CMSNL or Klaus  Studios really needs to step up and source replacements since they are so hard to find and so low stock.
David

True, for the starter clutch dampers I didn't bother with Klaus since I found a mom and pop dealer in Missouri that had them in stock. So few people work on these 650's compared to the others that I guess it's not worth it for them to care.

It sharpens your internet sleuthing ability, that's for sure!

Offline Bootsey

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1193 on: November 09, 2016, 07:25:02 PM »
Enjoying following your progress Dave.

Dave or bwaller - you wouldn't happen to have a link handy for top end oil mod mentioned a few posts back?You've perked my curiosity..

Offline MickB

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1194 on: November 09, 2016, 10:12:52 PM »
Dave, the donk is looking great and I'm glad you were able to get the primary rubbers, I was advised to change them and the primary drive chain (in fact every time you crack the cases within reason) and it'd stop any slop within the primary drive.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1195 on: November 10, 2016, 05:33:22 AM »
Enjoying following your progress Dave.

Dave or bwaller - you wouldn't happen to have a link handy for top end oil mod mentioned a few posts back?You've perked my curiosity..

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,24881.msg255554.html#msg255554

There you go Bootsey!

Dave, the donk is looking great and I'm glad you were able to get the primary rubbers, I was advised to change them and the primary drive chain (in fact every time you crack the cases within reason) and it'd stop any slop within the primary drive.

Thanks Mick, I'm really glad I was able to find those rubbers too. I bet the original ones would have worked ok, but it was worth calling random parts dealers around the US for piece of mind.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1196 on: November 10, 2016, 05:37:57 AM »
Just to be thorough, regarding my question about the o-ring hole being too small for an o-ring in the MLS gasket, Buzz at Dynoman said I'm not to use one there. And as Bwaller said above, the Viton coated steel is designed to seal without the o-ring.

All's good in the hood. Might be getting the rockers and cam in the next month or so.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1197 on: November 11, 2016, 09:00:46 AM »
I'll have to be thinking about connecting the Keihin CR26 carbs to the motor soon. I have a few different ways to do this, hoping I can get some opinions.

I'm almost positive there are no spigots made for the CR's that fit the 650 manifold rubber insulators. If there are, I could get those but the petcock in my tank will hit the the #1 carb, no doubt. I could make my own spigots and have them a bit longer to give room for the petcock as long as the pod filters don't hit the frame, also possibly adding a rear carb support. Or I could cut out and re-weld the petcock to clear everything. Or get a low profile Pingle petcock if one's available that will work for me.

Thoughts?

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1198 on: November 11, 2016, 09:15:07 AM »
FunJimmy on his Cafe Interceptor build made his own spigots/intake manifold which it appears CycleX has stolen the design idea on theirs.  Jimmy shows how in his build thread...
He did it with tools you most likely have access to.  He added a sliding table to his drill press.
Need a good drill press to act as an inexpensive mill.
David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline bwaller

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Re: Patina Hyena - Dave's '78 CB550K Cafe Build Thread
« Reply #1199 on: November 11, 2016, 10:30:53 AM »
I have a dual outlet Pingle I don't need. I'll PM a pic for you.