Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

[DaveBarbier]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

That’s exactly what’s happening, Don. I remember a couple years ago I over discharged it to like 9 volts but it was able to be recovered. It’s a Shorai LFX14a2 and I have the Shorai charger/tender also so that might have helped. This time, no dice.

They have a 5 year warranty but I’m 20 days over that...hilarious. I’ll see if the warranty covers this and if they’ll accept it. If not, oh well.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

That’s exactly what’s happening, Don. I remember a couple years ago I over discharged it to like 9 volts but it was able to be recovered. It’s a Shorai LFX14a2 and I have the Shorai charger/tender also so that might have helped. This time, no dice.

They have a 5 year warranty but I’m 20 days over that...hilarious. I’ll see if the warranty covers this and if they’ll accept it. If not, oh well.

Shorai has decent customer service.  They might waive your 20 days.  Let them know you've had the issue prior to that time and have been trying to trouble shoot it.

[DaveBarbier]

Also I might need a new battery. It’s been on the charger over night and it’s only at 12.5 volts. It should be over 13.

As I recall, you have a LiIo/LiPo/LiFe battery.  From my own personal experience, if the voltage drops below a specified threshold, the battery becomes unable to hold a new charge.  You can charge it up to 13, and when you put a load on it, it will drop.  Is that what's going on with it?  I've lost 2 lithium batteries to this.

That’s exactly what’s happening, Don. I remember a couple years ago I over discharged it to like 9 volts but it was able to be recovered. It’s a Shorai LFX14a2 and I have the Shorai charger/tender also so that might have helped. This time, no dice.

They have a 5 year warranty but I’m 20 days over that...hilarious. I’ll see if the warranty covers this and if they’ll accept it. If not, oh well.

Shorai has decent customer service.  They might waive your 20 days.  Let them know you've had the issue prior to that time and have been trying to trouble shoot it.

I’ll see what they say. I’m not looking for them to bend over backwards but if they decide to do something for me that would be cool. 

[DaveBarbier]

I haven’t tried to start it yet, but I think I figured out why it wasn’t starting. The 650 advance mechanism has two hash marks for idle and also two hash marks for advance, but the advance hashes are just barely visible because they’re under the pivot for the weights. I was accidentally using idle hash marks for the advance setting.

I also might have the wrong firing order as you said, Herbert, but I haven’t confirmed that yet. For sure I’ll check that this weekend.

[DaveBarbier]

Back out to the bike. As I said before I totally missed the advance hash marks. Here is where they are. Not easy to see!



Weird though...in the book it says my idle spark degree is 10° BTDC and I verified that on my degree wheel. But the advance says it’s 28.5° BTDC, but my wheel says 37.5° BTDC. What the hell? I’m sure the book is right and I’m wrong, but I don’t see how I could screw this up. 1/4 TDC lines up to my 0° on my degree wheel, the idle fire point of 10° lines up to my wheel but the advance is way off? Tried this three times and it’s still the same. The wheel isn’t shifting and neither is my pointer and nor is my pointer touching my degree wheel. Same thing I see on 2/3. Super weird. Unless I have the wrong advance mechanism..? Anyway, I’m just going to proceed with the ignition and not worry about anything. But I almost want to mark the 28.5° on the advance mechanism...

[h.lanooy]

If I’m not mistaken, the static advance is 10 degrees BTDC. From around 2k-2,5k rpm the manual states the advance is 28 degrees. In most cases you need to add the static with the total advance to get max advance. That would be 38 degrees in higher rpm’s.
If that’s the case you got it right!

[DaveBarbier]

Oh, so the advance degree is 28° before the static firing...that makes complete sense, haha. Not 28° from TDC. That’s confusing to me, but now that I know it almost seems obvious, haha!

And yes, you can see my picture above that shows the firing points.

[DaveBarbier]

Oh, and Herbert, my ignition plate does not have to be swapped around. Not sure what the other poster was talking about. I almost think he’s mistaken. 1/4 is at TDC and the ignition pickup that’s right online with the magnet on the Dyna rotor is the 1/4 pickup. I follow the wires and it’s going to the 1/4 coil and plug wires are indeed going to the 1/4 cylinders.

[bwaller]

Nice Dyno report Dave. I'm not surprised about retarding ignition lead providing best power. Part of that is tightening squish from original clearance. It just means the chamber is burning more efficiently.

[h.lanooy]

As long as your bike starts and runs OK all is fine.

I got my C5 running better by bringing down the advance. The first map of the C5 curve the advance is 40 degrees. As you go down to map 2, 3 and 4 the advance goes down.
I reprogrammed my curves with map 1 at 36 degrees, map 2 at 34 and map 3 at 32 degrees.
At 40 degrees my bike would not go beyond 6000 rpm's. Like it's running too lean, but my muffler and sparkplugs says it's running too rich.
With 36 degrees it climbs up in revs and my plugs have a better look on them. I got CV carbs with a dynojet kit. The kit comes with 116 main jets. With those my bike wouldn't go past 4k rpm's at 40 degrees. With 118 jets it goes to 6k rpm's.
Now with 36 degrees it goes to redline. I'm gonna try swapping the 118 back to 116 and see how it behaves. It still runs rich.

Since I mounted the dc-dc converter, I have not had any issues. Still not 100% conviced though. When I go for a ride I still take some tools just in case. As I make more miles on it I start trusting it till I get 100% trust.

[DaveBarbier]

Ok so bike ran seemingly well. My issue before was just that the timing was way off. After figuring that out it fires right up. I set the static advance timing as outlined in the Dyna manual and when I checked it dynamically with my strobe it was spot on. I didn’t have to adjust anything which is great.

ONLY issue is that the strobe for the 2/3 seems to be intermittent at advance and shut completely off if I rev it up. I took a video. It starts with me on the cylinder 3 plug wire and you’ll see the strobe flickering weirdly. Then at the 32 second mark I switch the strobe to the cylinder 4 plug wire and you see that it’s nice and smooth.

The bike revs up fine though. If one or two cylinders were dropping out would I hear it as it’s revving up? It’ll be rainy tomorrow but I’ll be out in the shop doing more tests.

[seanbarney41]

Did you try flipping the pick up/clamp over when it was acting funny?  Also, I have had problems powering the timing light with the battery hooked to the bike...had to use a spare battery.  Sorry I don't know the why's of all this, just some tricks I have had to resort to over the years.

[DaveBarbier]

Did you try flipping the pick up/clamp over when it was acting funny?  Also, I have had problems powering the timing light with the battery hooked to the bike...had to use a spare battery.  Sorry I don't know the why's of all this, just some tricks I have had to resort to over the years.

I did try to flip the clamp and it didn’t change much. I say “much” because if I wiggle the clamp around some times it would work better, but also if I didn’t touch it it would work better...so not sure if that was because of my wiggling or that it was acting weird on it’s own.

Good idea with the separate battery. I’ll take out my truck’s battery to run the strobe.

[MRieck]

 Dave.....are you running a fan on the engine when running the engine stationary? Also....dyno chart looked good....torque is nice.

[DaveBarbier]

Dave.....are you running a fan on the engine when running the engine stationary? Also....dyno chart looked good....torque is nice.

Yup, to my right there’s a box fan. And yeah, thanks, I’m happy about the dyno results. Since I had to switch ignitions I may go to my local guy and play with advancing or retarding in a few weeks once I feel this ignition is more stable than the C5.

[DaveBarbier]

Did you try flipping the pick up/clamp over when it was acting funny?  Also, I have had problems powering the timing light with the battery hooked to the bike...had to use a spare battery.  Sorry I don't know the why's of all this, just some tricks I have had to resort to over the years.

Hey Sean, thanks for the tip on the second battery. No strobe issue. Much appreciated!

[DaveBarbier]

So here’s my post on getting the Dyna S to work on the ‘79-‘82 CB650. I also make and sell kits so it will be a plug and play install. PM me for more info.

What I purchased from Dynatek:
3.0 Ohm Coil Set DC1-1
DS1-2 Ignition
DW-200 Plug Wire Kit (not shown)


There are only 3 things that have to be done to get this Dyna S to work.

1: Ignition plate must be made smaller to fit the 650 bosses. I made an entirely new plate from scratch. You’ll have to play with the position of the pickups, plate adjustment slots and timing window to get it all to work. Takes some fiddling.

Turning down the OD:


After tapping the 4-40 holes, filing the adjustment notches and drilling the timing window:


2: Rotor ID has to be bored out. But only half of the ID. The 650 advance shaft has two diameters. One fits fine, but the second is slightly bigger. (I was initially thinking of turning down the advance shaft but it’s hardened and hard to get a tool in there so I gave up.) The red arrow points to the part of the shaft that’s about .006” too big. The part of the shaft that the green arrow points to is a correct fit for the rotor.

Rotor with the ID bored out a hair. Again, only half the rotor needs to be bored out, just to clear the larger section of the advance shaft.


3: The advance shaft of the 650 is about 1/8” longer than what this rotor is designed for so you have to make a spacer to take up the axial play in the rotor.

You can see the spacer at the end of the rotor. You still need some axial play in the rotor or else it will be locked and won’t be allowed to advance. The spacer dimensions aren't critical but it should be something like this:
OD: .875"
ID: .594"
Thickness: .104"



That’s all that has to be done. Obviously you need to mount the coils but that’s on you. Normal fabrication there.

IMPORTANT NOTE: When you remove the pickup modules from the Dyna plate you’ll see a white grease under them. That’s a heatsink compound. Dyna uses Dow Corning 340 and it must be replaced on your new plate. Only use about a pea sized amount. Even less, more like a lentil. Maybe a couple basmati rise grains...you get the idea. Two apple seeds?

Here’s the system in all it’s glory, timed and good to go.


Just have to ride the thing now!

[h.lanooy]

What a great and detailed tutorial!!!
Well done Dave

[DaveBarbier]

What a great and detailed tutorial!!!
Well done Dave

Long train commute to work so that’s good for you guys. Thanks!

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Basmati rice!! 

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

[Marissa]

Impressive as always Dave!!

[h.lanooy]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

[DaveBarbier]

After about a 2.5 hour ride there were no issues. Only thing is is that it actually felt a little slower...

Would I really notice if it was running on three cylinders or is that something that is kind of hard to tell? All pipes burned my finger tips. Idled well (my bike likes a higher idle, like 1750rpm) Any lower and it runs rough and dies.

One of these days I’ll go to the dyno near my house and see what happening. The C5 (according to Herbert) has an advance of 40° and the Dyna uses the stock advance unit which is 28.5°.

It should be able to idle around 950 to 1000 rpm. 1750 is not idling.
Something is off then.
Issue could be timing, faulty plugs, plug cable, carbs the whole lot. Don’t check pipe temp with your fingers but try a IR temp meter. With you mentioning it felt slower sounds like a cylinder is doing it’s job. Wich would cause bad idling.

The idle speed I’m not worried about. With the hotter cam and race carbs it won’t be able to idle at the stock setting. Both MRieck and the Rick the dyno tuner were saying it’s normal. But I am thinking it needs a little more advance, which might be bring the idle down to around 1500 where it was with the C5.

I think my feeling of a cylinder not firing isn’t correct. It idles high but still very smooth. I think a non firing cylinder would make it much more rough.

Herbert, where did you find the info about what the idle timing and advance timing were for the C5? I’ll email Paul too about that.

But even so, I’m gaining confidence in the Dyna and it feels great to have a bike that doesn’t shut off after an hour.