Topic: Piston rings - orientation

[eigenvector]

Watching a Youtube clip on compression ring installation, the guy mentioned that there are actually 2 different rings - 1st and second rings.  The 2nd ring different by the presence of a bevel.

Looking at the set of rings that I am getting ready to install, I notice that there is a very slight bevel on both sides of one of the rings.  My question, for the 1st ring (top ring) is there an orientation?  I don't see a mark on the ring that denotes 'top' or 'bottom'.  For the 2nd ring, is there an orientation?  I notice that the bevel is on both sides, so I don't see any obvious reason why one side would be 'up' or 'down'.

[thirsty 1]

Look at them real close .  You'll have a dot on one side of them. This dot goes up. Pictures would help.

 Is one a dull black and the other shiney?

[eigenvector]

Good call taking a closer look at them.

There is an 'R' imprinted on one side of the ring/s.  I didn't realize I'd need a magnifying glass to see it - but it is there.  Can I assume that's the side that goes 'up'?

Edit:  a photo wouldn't show anything, I don't have a camera good enough to image that 'R'.

These are Honda part 13011-374-000 if that matters.

[HondaMan]

Good call taking a closer look at them.

There is an 'R' imprinted on one side of the ring/s.  I didn't realize I'd need a magnifying glass to see it - but it is there.  Can I assume that's the side that goes 'up'?

Edit:  a photo wouldn't show anything, I don't have a camera good enough to image that 'R'.

These are Honda part 13011-374-000 if that matters.

Yep, that side will be "UP".
The 1st and 2nd rings are also different materials. The top ring should be shinier than the 2nd ring, as the 2nd ring is usually cast iron. The top ring may be all chrome, partly chrome, or just polished. Be sure to set your ring gaps, too.

[eigenvector]

Setting the gap - Uhhhggg, what a drag.

Suppose it wouldn't do to tear it all apart, clean everything, replace all the consumable parts, then fumble something trivial like that.

[eigenvector]

Related question.

I'm not in a rush, so all these questions may seem a bit 'after the fact'.

Can anyone recommend a decent hone to use for the bores?  Does anyone have experience in this.  I have to admit I'm entering new territory although I have experience in other engines.

I'm not overboring or anything fancy, just breaking the glaze and prepping the walls for the new rings.

[flybox1]

I never did it before either, but I read a bunch and picked up a rotary tool hone off amazon.  Expanding type w three 220 grit stones
It was under $20, and took 2 minutes or less per cylinder to create a nice clean hatch. 
WD40, slow speed, lots of oscillations, 45deg hatch, done.

[cougar]

 eigenvector ; I'ld like to throw a couple of things into this mix, if you don't mind. Feel the top 1/4" or so of your cylinder. Do you feel "ANY" kind of a lip ? If so, you Absolutely Should buy/rent a "Ridge Reamer". This is a tool that when used will remove the ridge that forms at the top of a cylinder over time (don't know miles or internal condition of your motor). Since your installing New rings, they will have sharp edges on them. If you don't remove the lip around the top of the cylinder then you stand a Good chance of breaking at least your top ring (minimum) or worse, the ring land that is between the top 2 grooves (junking that piston). The tool isn't hard to use. Simply insert it in the cyl. and adjust out till slight contact is made with cyl. wall. Apply a little pressure on the wall and start turning the tool, adjusting to keep slight pressure till the lip has been removed (then stop). Then the next item you'll want is commonly ('round here anyway) called a "dingle berry hone". It looks like a cylindrical wire brush with balls of grit on the end of each one. This is the tool you'll use to put your "crosshatching" back in with.

 I hate to disagree with "flybox" here but you don't want/need the 3-stone expanding type. Those are mainly used with Newly bored cylinders where the cutting/boring tool has taken out "Almost" all the material for New pistons (leaving Only a couple of thousands of material, then one would use the 3-stone hone to remove those last very few thousands. Then finishing it off with the "dingle-berry hone" for the crosshatching. "flybox" is correct on using lubricant, slow speed, oscillations and 45 degree crosshatching.

 Hope I haven't confused or scared you in any way, LOL !

...cougar...

[70CB750]

+1 on dingle-berry hone, you can find it under the name Flex hone and it is made by Brush Research Manufacturing. 

I bought mine new on hebay.

BTW, cougar, did you ever raise sheep?

[eigenvector]

Naw you didn't worry me about it.

I was having trouble finding a ball type hone in the cylinder size.  Seems like 3" was the smallest I could find on Amazon anyway.  Sometimes its a matter of what keyword you use to search though - I'll take another gander.  Hones really aren't that expensive, I can eat 30 bucks if will save my engine.  I do have a 3 pad hone on order - sorry, you caught me too late.

I'll make sure I cop a feel and see if there is a ridge present.  I'm not expecting to find one - the engine has 30k on the clock, not a lot of miles.  The 2nd ring busted on the #2 cylinder - from my ham-fisted wrenching no doubt, that's why I'm doing this.

[cougar]

70CB750 ;  , naahhh never raised any sheep, just old  !

eigenvector ; Don't beat yourself up on the ring breaking. I've seen it happen to even the most careful of mech's. Could have been a microscopic air pocket in the ring, oh snap!   

...cougar...

[HondaMan]

Naw you didn't worry me about it.

I was having trouble finding a ball type hone in the cylinder size.  Seems like 3" was the smallest I could find on Amazon anyway.  Sometimes its a matter of what keyword you use to search though - I'll take another gander.  Hones really aren't that expensive, I can eat 30 bucks if will save my engine.  I do have a 3 pad hone on order - sorry, you caught me too late.

I'll make sure I cop a feel and see if there is a ridge present.  I'm not expecting to find one - the engine has 30k on the clock, not a lot of miles.  The 2nd ring busted on the #2 cylinder - from my ham-fisted wrenching no doubt, that's why I'm doing this.

One of the things that a 3-stone hone is real handy for is: finding out if you have a ridge at the top of the bore. In my book, Page II-17, there's a series of pictures showing how to hone (using straight-stone hones) to first find out if there is such wear, then how to remove it with further honing.

In freshly-bored holes, the type of hone (ball or straight) makes no difference presuming the straight-hone type has straight stones, which are not all used and beat up. In used bores, the ball hones won't highlight the worn areas for you, because they track along the irregularities too well.

I have both types, and use them accordingly: the ball type breaks the glaze very quickly (30-60 seconds) while the straight type can help "bore" the cylinder slightly, if that's what you're after. In the "old days" we used to bore the Honda 70 and 90cc engines one oversize with a small 3-stone hone: it takes about an hour!

[eigenvector]

Now I do have a question about end gap.

The service guide says end gap of 0.15 to 0.35, my plan was to set the end-gap to as close to 0.15 as I could get it (assuming I don't have to bore it over).  Is it actually a better idea to give myself some room for error - say set the end gap to 0.2 or 0.25?

[eigenvector]

I'd like to thank everyone who helped me with this.

I have the cylinders honed/deglazed, new rings, new wrist retainers.

All I need is for the weather to give me a break and I can re-assemble the motor.

Cross-hatching probably would get me fired as a mechanic, but I did my best.  It was surprisingly difficult to get that 45 deg angle.  It's probably closer to 30 degrees.

None of the rings required trimming, they were all ~0.2mm gap.  I checked in 3 places in the cylinder