Author Topic: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.  (Read 3550 times)

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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2014, 10:30:56 AM »
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Actually, the first one was in Pennsylvania in 1764.  July 26, 1764, where four men entered the schoolhouse near present-day Greencastle, Pennsylvania, shot and killed schoolmaster Enoch Brown, and killed nine or ten children (reports vary). Only three children survived.
Not germaine. The kids were the victims, not the perpetrators.
Let's keep this on track. :)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2014, 11:14:31 AM »
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Actually, the first one was in Pennsylvania in 1764.  July 26, 1764, where four men entered the schoolhouse near present-day Greencastle, Pennsylvania, shot and killed schoolmaster Enoch Brown, and killed nine or ten children (reports vary). Only three children survived.
Not germaine. The kids were the victims, not the perpetrators.
Let's keep this on track. :)

So because, you've never heard or read about a student/child shooting, knifing, killing, of another child from your known recorded history, it didn't happen?
Could this be yet another artifact of the faith you've put in the broadcast "news" media?  I wonder...

Readers might be interested in animal behavioral studies of other mammals.  Wiki has some pointers to work I've read in the days before wiki existed.
 Here's A link for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun

Yes, humans have a different knowledge base and communication structure than most mammals.  But, we all have the same baser instincts which the media teases and provokes into prominence.  And, we all have the same helpless feeling of being directly controlled by a central authority whose fairness is in question.

----------------------------------------
John B. Calhoun (May 11, 1917 – September 7, 1995) was an American ethologist and behavioral researcher noted for his studies of population density and its effects on behavior. He claimed that the bleak effects of overpopulation on rodents were a grim model for the future of the human race. During his studies, Calhoun coined the term "behavioral sink" to describe aberrant behaviors in overcrowded population density situations and “beautiful ones” to describe passive individuals who withdrew from all social interaction.


In the early 1960s, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) acquired property in a rural area outside Poolesville, Maryland. The facility that was built on this property housed several research projects, including those headed by Calhoun. It was here that his most famous experiment, the mouse universe, was created.[1] In July 1968 four pairs of mice were introduced into the Utopian universe. The universe was a 9-foot (2.7 m) square metal pen with 54-inch-high (1.4 m) sides. Each side had four groups of four vertical, wire mesh “tunnels”. The “tunnels” gave access to nesting boxes, food hoppers, and water dispensers. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.
John Calhoun meeting Pope Paul VI on 27 September 1973.

Initially the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly. The last surviving birth was on day 600. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against. After day 600, the social breakdown continued and the population declined toward extinction. During this period females ceased to reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves – all solitary pursuits. Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars characterized these males. They were dubbed “the beautiful ones”.

The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population.

Calhoun saw the fate of the population of mice as a metaphor for the potential fate of man. He characterized the social breakdown as a “second death”, with reference to the “second death” mentioned in the Biblical book of Revelation 2:11 [1] His study has been cited by writers such as Bill Perkins as a warning of the dangers of living in an "increasingly crowded and impersonal world"
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2014, 11:20:25 AM »
Once again, my point isn't at all about overall violent crime rates; I'm curious about whether or not school aged kids have always been this violent.
Attention Lloyd, I've underlined the operative word just for you. Curious and disbelieving are two completely different things. No attempts at mind-reading please. ;D
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2014, 11:33:44 AM »
Once again, my point isn't at all about overall violent crime rates; I'm curious about whether or not school aged kids have always been this violent.
Attention Lloyd, I've underlined the operative word just for you. Curious and disbelieving are two completely different things. No attempts at mind-reading please. ;D

I still wonder what information source will satisfy your curiosity.  ...And how you will assess it's veracity.  You seem to be rejecting recent attempts as not meeting your acceptance criteria. 
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2014, 11:37:55 AM »
Please please please, everyone stay on topic This thread is about a killing carried out by a , and I can't seem to emphasize this enough, CHILD. I'm asking questions to gain information; I don't yet have enough to form an opinion.
The mice study is interesting, but when did the juveniles start slaughtering each other?
PLEASE stay on topic.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2014, 11:48:28 AM »
Once again, my point isn't at all about overall violent crime rates; I'm curious about whether or not school aged kids have always been this violent.
Attention Lloyd, I've underlined the operative word just for you. Curious and disbelieving are two completely different things. No attempts at mind-reading please. ;D
While I did not have time to go through the entire listing. It appears to have started in 1880. In many cases before and after that, students were shooting Teachers and Teachers were shooting students.
Having been VP of my local Board of Education during Colombine, I tend not to put a fine point on who shoots who. Violence in a School building is quite vile.
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Offline Duanob

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2014, 11:51:46 AM »
This just keeps getting weirder and weirder. The 14 year old was freinds and family with all involved. Said he was a super likeable and social guy. Not the usual loner that keeps to himself. In fact he texted all invlolved to come have lunch with him. Just not sure what to make of it.

And why wasn't gun locked up so a 14 year old couldn't access it? Heck when I was 12 I knew where my step dad kept all his guns in the house and showed my friends when the parents were at work. Of course I didn't know where he kept the ammo and if I did ever load a gun without him around he wouldv'e kicked my ass and good.
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2014, 11:53:23 AM »
Once again, my point isn't at all about overall violent crime rates; I'm curious about whether or not school aged kids have always been this violent.
Attention Lloyd, I've underlined the operative word just for you. Curious and disbelieving are two completely different things. No attempts at mind-reading please. ;D
While I did not have time to go through the entire listing. It appears to have started in 1880. In many cases before and after that, students were shooting Teachers and Teachers were shooting students.
Having been VP of my local Board of Education during Colombine, I tend not to put a fine point on who shoots who. Violence in a School building is quite vile.
Now that's a pertinent statement! Let's have some more of that.
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2014, 11:56:45 AM »
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he texted all invlolved to come have lunch with him
Maybe he wanted them all in one place for some reason. :(
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 12:09:12 PM by Killer Canary »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2014, 03:05:21 PM »
Please please please, everyone stay on topic This thread is about a killing carried out by a , and I can't seem to emphasize this enough, CHILD. I'm asking questions to gain information; I don't yet have enough to form an opinion.
The mice study is interesting, but when did the juveniles start slaughtering each other?
PLEASE stay on topic.

Hmmm... When did you become the thread police?  ...On a thread you didn't start?

Anyway, juveniles mimic adults/role models.  They are NOT a separate species.  What is the most prominent role model for children today?

Just what is it that separates an adult from a juvenile?  When exactly does a juvenile transition to an adult.  If you want rigid answers, you must rigidly define the question.

Imo, it is NOT a specific age demarcation.  Some are still juvenile into their 60's.  I've also known some 10 year olds who were far more "adult" than their parents.

Are today's children taught responsibility for their actions?  By whom?
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2014, 03:11:34 PM »
You're absolutely right of course. I'll shut up.
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2014, 05:07:54 PM »
You're absolutely right of course. I'll shut up.

You don't need to shut up.  Just let people say what they need to.  It's all food for thought.  None of us has the power to implement a solution acceptable to all.  But, discussion can help ease minds.   :)

I'd still be interested how you define a child.  Especially one influenced only by other children.

It's been alluded to earlier, the breakdown of the family unit as a major factor, which has left children to fend for and learn from each other or whatever media outlet available.

Some parents are afraid to discipline their child, as authorities can charge them with child abuse if it doesn't meet some authoritarian's guidelines.  If the parents aren't allowed to be responsible, how can you expect a child to become responsible, or accept responsibility for their actions.

I grew up with lots of freedoms.  But, I had accountability as well as responsibilities, with meaningful consequences for not owning up.  One example, nobody gave me a brand new car upon reaching driving age.  Many these days expect it.

Our local schools have begun a curriculum intended to "teach" group teamwork, as is found in many workplaces.  Groups or teams are given a common grade on completed tasks.  No individual accountability.  If you excel at a task, you still get the common grade.  The bright eager beavers are thus penalized, even discouraged, from excelling, or doing just enough to get by.  And the distracted or uninvolved see no repercussions from their lack of contribution.  In my mind they are teaching students to NOT be responsible over that which they can control.  Or, teaching them that it is futile to think they could ever be in control. 

I know I would probably have searched for some activity where I could have some control.  Wouldn't you?  Who would have nudged me into a non-destructive activity?
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Offline dave500

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2014, 06:24:13 PM »
 "If you excel at a task, you still get the common grade.  The bright eager beavers are thus penalized, even discouraged, from excelling, or doing just enough to get by.  And the distracted or uninvolved see no repercussions from their lack of contribution."


your describing the average australian local council employees now?

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2014, 07:26:49 AM »
I can't really improve on what Carlin said about schools and our current situation.

There's a reason education sucks, it's the same reason that it will never, ever, ever be fixed. It's never going to get any better, don't look for it, be happy with what you got.  Because the owners of this country don't want that.  I'm talking about the real owners, now.  The real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies, so that they control just about all of the news and information you hear. They've got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying,­ lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else.
But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they're getting #$%*ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 #$%*ing years ago.

You know what they want? Obedient workers,­ people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly #$%*tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And, now, they're coming for your Social Security. They want your #$%*ing retirement money. They want it back, so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street.  And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all, sooner or later, because they own this #$%*ing place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club.

This country is finished
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2014, 07:33:04 AM »
Starting to get very political. Mind the Forum rules.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2014, 02:48:10 PM »
Well Bob, I don't think politics gets discussed enough,  and I think that is part of the overall problem and one of the points that that Dukie made with his post. I'm sick to death of people saying "shut up. I'm sick of hearing about politics", I have a few friends like this,  these people are part of the problem at the moment, and the type of people governments world wide just love. The media has a big part in all this as well, nothing is reported as it is, its all hyperbole aimed at supporting who ever seems to best meet their needs at the time, they have also become to big and powerful. The whole world needs more discussion on politics generally, the head in the sand stuff isn't helping anyone... No offense intended, I just hate how disgustingly dishonest politics has become, I'm not naive enough to think its ever been clean or without hidden agenda's but its now at an all time low, I fear for my children's future and this drives me to speak out, if more people did this we would be in a better place...
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2014, 03:34:23 PM »
Sorry if it leans a little political Bob, but just putting the end of the first paragraph in without the entire quote I feel would be a disservice to the people here. I think it speaks to the situation we are currently in and is part of the reasons we are having these increasing problems at our schools and our country.

And I am not trying to put it all on one political party or the other, WE ALL have let this happen to US.
But, bread and circus will cure all, right?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 03:37:05 PM by DukieDukenDuke »
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2014, 04:00:44 PM »
Dukie, Retro, nothing wrong with discussing politics face to face. Doing it with on -line anonymity leads to problems. Sometimes big problems requiring constant intervention.  As a consequence they are not permitted here. There are many forums elsewhere more suitable. Hope you understand.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2014, 06:26:35 PM »
I must agree with Bob on this. I go back to the early email days of this Club. In the early days it was all bikes, CB750s mostly. Given the crude technology questions and answers were pretty short.

As the technology advanced this site evolved into a Community and with the expanded capability some additional things could be added.

This site is about Bikes. We have some fun threads Southside Dive Bar, Babe Thread  etc. They are self contained and harmless.

When we get into Politics and emotionally charged issues, there is a real possibility that things can get out of hand.

Trust me when I say that Bob W is pretty mellow and very even handed. 
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Offline scottly

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Re: Really!?!? because of a girl!?!? another school shooting.
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2014, 07:19:24 PM »

Trust me when I say that Bob W is pretty mellow and very even handed.
I'll second that. ;)
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