Author Topic: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?  (Read 2283 times)

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Offline Airbusboy

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CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« on: November 07, 2014, 09:27:32 AM »
Hey guys...

I'm running a Hondaman ignition box on my '74 Honda CB550 w/iridium plugs and I believe my stock coils and/or wires are breaking down. If I'm going to replace them, I may as well put some 'High Performance' coils and wires on just as easily....that is if they are still available.  Anyone know if they are and a source for them? Will they work with my Hondaman ignition box?  Thanks!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2014, 09:46:31 AM »
Unless you do serious hop ups to the engine, you do not need "high performance" coils.  And, installing them will only increase the system power draw for no benefit of spark quality.  The plugs fire as the voltage rises and it stops rising when the plugs fire.  Doesn't matter how much "reserve" voltage potential remains stored in the coil.

Further, unless both electrodes of your plugs are iridium, only half of the plug population gets any (marginal) benefit, as half the system uses reverse polarity from the other two.

Many systems, particularly with distributor ignition, use the same polarity for all the spark plugs.  Not so for the SOHC4.  For the SOHC4 you'd need a plug where both the center electrode and the ground strap are iridium.

Anyway, the purpose of using iridium metal is to reduce spark gap erosion (over multi-thousand miles) when zapped with very high voltages and high cylinder heating.  Unless you change the entire ignition scheme of the SOHC4, you aren't going to get "very high" voltages in the spark gap.  And for longevity sake, you don't want to run the engine in a high heat mode, just to extract max benefit from iridiums.

Is your "belief" that your coils are bad, borne out of a testing process?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Bodi

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2014, 10:16:36 AM »
Pretty much everything TT posted whilst I was entering this... but it took so long I'm posting it anyway!
There's controversy about "high performance" coils. They tend to claim a higher spark voltage, but the spark voltage is set by the plugs - not the coils. Any appropriate coil will produce enough voltage to initiate the spark: the gas between the electrodes ionizes at some fairly fixed voltage depending on mixture and compression, then it begins conducting which creates the plasma arc. The coil voltage does not get above that ionization voltage, "extra" voltage in not used.
Some extreme performance engines with very high compression or exotic fuels have higher ionization voltages, some oddball plug geometries as well. This doesn't apply to our old bikes.
The usual choice for SOHC4 replacement coils is two Dyna DC1-1 or DC8-1 twin fire coils that fit on the stock coil mounting towers with a slight modification to the towers. Dyna coils come as 3 or 5 Ohm. The 5 Ohm coils (stock coils are 5 Ohm) are preferable in my opinion, the extra current draw from the 3 Ohm coils does not improve ignition from the installations I've seen, and they burn your stock points. I believe the HM ignition box can use 3 Ohm coils but I'm not sure - HM also sells ballast resistors to use 3 Ohm coils with normal points and these may be necessary with the ignition box. Standard points don't last long on 3 Ohm coils though, if the HM box fails and you switch it to bypass then the load is all back on the points. If you get Dyna coils you should pick up their coil sets as well, finding metal core wire and the coil terminals isn't as easy as many think.
You can also install dual fire coils from most 4 cylinder Hondas, some have replaceable cables unlike the old originals. Some of these also have different resistance, so check before you commit to them. Coils for electronic ignition models may be extremely low resistance (less than 1 Ohm).
The coils themselves don't often fail, it is usually the cables or caps that degrade.
Check cap resistance, the OEM resistance varies with model but will be 5kOhm or 10kOhm. The total resistance in the plug circuit should be what Honda supplied - you can use any combination of resistor caps and/or resistor plugs to achieve that. It's best to have all four caps and plugs the same for simplicity but electrically there's no difference between two 5k caps and one 10k cap plus one 0k cap.
It IS possible to replace the cables on a stock coil when the cables are old and ruined. It isn't pretty - but the coils are not visible, so who cares? You hack out the coil cases where each cable enters until you get to where they solder on and remove the cables. Then you solder in your new cables, and finally fill the case excavations with epoxy.
I don't think iridium plugs are worth the cost. From my research they are supposed to wear down less quickly, and I haven't seen my bike's plug electrodes eroding away. For car engines where the plug interval is tens of thousands of miles - and maybe the engine has to be lifted to get at them - OK.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2014, 12:14:40 PM »
make sure the point gaps and timing are set spot on first.

Offline Airbusboy

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2014, 02:54:03 PM »
Thanks for the education, Gentlemen!  To further expand on my problem....
This bike ('74 CB550K) has only about 5K miles on it.  It started running poorly at low and midrange RPMs on cylinders 3 and 4.  I had cleaned out 38 years of old gasoline (yes, it SAT for 38 years!) from the tank and coated it with RedKote. I was still getting some trash in the carbs even though they had been cleaned and I had two filters in the line, one in the petcock and one in-line on each fuel line. I had the carbs cleaned again professionally yet now cylinder 4 would not run at idle or midrange. Changing plugs did nothing.  However, on changing plugs I found that the number 4 plug cap was poorly attached to the plug wire and I found LOTS of corrosion in the end of the wire. I AM getting spark at #4, albeit very weak.  This is the reason I thought the last to try is the coils and plug wires. BTW, the points gap and timing are spot on and initially HM's electronic ignition box had the bike running great! Any other ideas?

Offline Airbusboy

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2014, 02:57:22 PM »
Also...I RECOATED the tank interior with CASWELL's tank liner so I KNOW the carbs are getting clean fuel. Assuming the carbs are right, and with a KNOWN bad #4 wire/cap connection, I just thought new coils and wires were my last resort.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2014, 03:15:54 PM »
Electrical components are measurable to determine if they are within spec./function.

Of course, many simply use substitution to find faulty components.  I rather prefer to test them before a diagnosis and spending money on hope.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline calj737

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2014, 03:16:48 PM »
You can trim the stock wires and install new caps. Just nip about 1/4" from the end, and be sure there's no corrosion further up the wire.

Clean carbs? How clean? Who cleaned them? If you can't confrim they were completely cleaned (jets, tubes, float valves) then they aren't clean enough. There's a very good FAQ on cleaning them properly and fully you can review if plug wires and caps doesn't bring about a marked improvement in running.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2014, 03:28:11 PM »
I see you've recoated the tank twice, and are paranoid about filtration of fuel.  If you added filters and tubing that interfere with the gravity flow of gas, you generated a new problem.  Drop loops of tubing can trap air and block full flow.

Lastly, if you cleaned carbs first and then fed them with dirty gas before proper tank cleaning/coating, it seems unlikely that the carbs have remained clean.  The order of corrective action matters.  The fuel lines often need flushing after tank repairs.

Wish I had a buck for each time I've read that carbs were clean, and then later corrected by a "proper" cleaning, or a cleaning of a strategic component within the carbs.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline calj737

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2014, 03:48:24 PM »
Then you might actually be able to afford to retire, TT!  ;)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2014, 05:30:21 PM »
Then you might actually be able to afford to retire, TT!  ;)

I am retired.  But, with the "extra" income, I could buy a round or three.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Airbusboy

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2014, 05:52:37 PM »
Thanks for the input so far, Gentlemen!  The carbs were cleaned by Atlanta Motorcycle Works in north Atlanta. Good guys and they seemed to know what they were doing. I have new fuel lines coming from a brand new petcock. I also installed two clear fuel filters and have confirmed fuel is flowing. I DID flush everything and confirmed CLEAN fuel is being supplied as I ran the fuel through the lines into a bucket BEFORE mounting the tank and there is indeed spotlessly clean/fresh fuel headed for the carbs.  With all that behind me, I'm pretty confident that fuel delivery is not my issue.  Tomorrow I will try nipping back a quarter inch of the number 4 plug wire, reinstalling the plug cap and see what happens. Is it possible to swap lead wires on the coils and see if the problem moves over to cylinders 1/2?

Offline calj737

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2014, 05:56:47 PM »
You can swap the wires to test the firing, but as TT said, testing the resistance across the wires and caps is a far more effective method of identifying your issue.

TT, I said "afford to retire". I know you are retired, but in today's economy, who can truly afford to not draw a full income?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB500/550 High performance coils and wires availability ?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2014, 07:05:31 PM »
Is it possible to swap lead wires on the coils and see if the problem moves over to cylinders 1/2?

The coils fire the plugs in pairs.  One drives 1 and 4's plugs, the other drives 2 and 3's plugs.  You don't usually get one to spark of the pair without the other unless a spark wire is grounded or leaky.  The coil drives current in a loop from one coil output lead to the other of its "dual" output; one lead pushes, one lead sucks.  The spark plugs are electrically interconnected through the cylinder head.

Do carefully inspect the ignition wires for cracks/leaks.  Run the bike in a darkened garage.  Sometimes arcing will be visibly apparent.  And that is your spark energy being diverted.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.