Author Topic: "Tight" wheel bearings?  (Read 2518 times)

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Offline zoogler

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"Tight" wheel bearings?
« on: November 08, 2014, 02:01:28 PM »
Hi folks, I'm rebuilding wheels for the first time on my CB400f project. 

The wheels were in terrible shape.  I removed them, and put in new All Balls bearings.  I was very careful in installing them to only put pressure on the outer race.  They were tight but not unreasonably so.

But, by the time they were fully seated, I noticed that they are much more difficult to spin than the old bearings.  In fact, the axle seems to spin against the bearing, without the bearing itself spinning.  The bearing still spin, but need a lot of effort.

I figure I either screwed up the bearing during the install (even though I was very careful), or something is up with the bearing spacer.  The old bearings were "open" in the back, and the spacer seems like it was better suited to them than with these sealed bearings.   Is it possible to have it in the wrong orientation, or have overtightened things somehow to make the bearing bind? 

Thanks for all your help so far...

Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: "Tight" wheel bearings?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2014, 02:21:47 PM »
If you drove the floating bearings in to far against the spacer then the wheel binds when put back in the forks and all tightened down. If it is a little tight feeling it is alright, they will settle and roll smooth. It's important to properly torque the axle and put the wheel in the forks and then see what happens

The bearings have exactly the same dimensions so being sealed shouldn't matter. The second seal should be the one single difference and that is just a piece of plastic.

If you haven't done the rear yet you should know there is a funky little spacer that goes in the bearings with the larger ID. It will probably be stuck to the old bearing so be very careful and don't lose it.
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Offline zoogler

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Re: "Tight" wheel bearings?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2014, 05:27:16 PM »
Thanks for your reply.

So you're saying that if the bearings are pressed in too tight that it might bind against the spacer?  One of the bearings (non-speedo side) has a lip, so it can't be pressed too far.  I guess I need to slightly loosen the other one?  It seems that this would damage the bearing, so I want to make sure this is the right thing to do right now.  The bike is in pieces, so I can't test it on the fork...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 06:27:16 PM by zoogler »

Offline Bodi

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Re: "Tight" wheel bearings?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2014, 07:09:01 PM »
The one with the lip in the bore also has the threaded retainer ring (absolutely required) - that bearing locates the rim on the axle stack. The other bearing "floats" - it moves relatively freely from side to side and finds the spot where the races are aligned on both bearings.
Most Honda hubs are bored a bit tight on the floating side, I tend to enlarge them slightly with 600 paper.
Whatever, to get the bearings in and aligned:
Mount the axle straight up with the head in a vise, or have it on a solid floor pointing up. Put the long solid spacer (the one used on the assembled axle) on the axle against the head. After the retained bearing is installed (and the ring tightened and staked) slide the rim onto the axle (retained bearing down) and put the hub spacer in (it should fit through the floating bearing bore). Slide the floating bearing down the axle and into its bore. Since it's on the axle, it will be square to its bore and can not tilt and bind.
As gently as possible, tap the bearing in with something that only hits the outer bearing race (a big socket or some PVC pipe the right size). Note that you are also hitting the retained bearing in a bad way... so if the floating bearing's bore is too tight to move it without extreme hammering, I recommend opening the bore a bit. These bearings are designed for radial loads but can handle the axial load of this installation method - unless you need the "big hammer".
Tap the bearing down until its inner race is against the spacer. You should hear and/or feel the difference when that happens, don't force it any further.
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This method seats the floating bearing with its races misaligned in the same direction as the retained bearing (both inner races are pushed "up" relative to the outer races). Remove the axial load (the weight of the rim/wheel) and they will both be properly aligned with no play between the bearings and spacer.
Once you lift it so the axle is horizontal, the axle should spin freely - with the bearings. A few miles riding will allow the floating bearing to shift and perfect the alignment.

If you seat the bearing with the retained bearing free (not with the rim sitting on it as above), you end up with both bearings misaligned opposite ways (both inner races pushed "out" relative to the outer races) and get the binding you describe. It will eventually align itself if the bore is not super tight, but the floating bearing outer race will have to move quite a ways (relatively speaking).

The best way to do this is using a tool on both bearings that contacts both inner and outer races. You need two cylindrical metal spacers a couple of inches long, fitting loosely in the bearing bores and with a centre hole to fit the axle, with flat and square ends. The retainer ring is installed after seating the floating bearing. Same procedure as above but with the tool in place of the solid axle spacer used above. You drive in the floating bearing with the other tool until it seats against the internal spacer. Both bearings are properly aligned while doing this, and the undesirable axial pounding load on the retained bearing is avoided. For just doing your own bike every few years, this is not worth it unless you happen to have a lathe in your shop (lucky bugger).

Offline NobleHops

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Re: "Tight" wheel bearings?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2014, 09:23:38 PM »
Please submit this to the FAQ. This is the best description of what's happening with this type of bearing/spacer system that I've read anywhere.

And thanks.

N.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 04:16:15 PM by NobleHops »
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My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline zoogler

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Re: "Tight" wheel bearings?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2014, 12:15:12 PM »
Wow, fantastic response.  Thanks so much.

I used your method and the back wheel went together perfectly.  Sanding the floating bearing area a bit also seemed to help.  They don't explain your alignment trick at all in the Clymer and Haynes manuals.

I figure that with the front (seized) wheel I have a combination of the bearings being a little too tight and a little bit misaligned.  I'll remove the floating one (hopefully it comes out without damage), sand a bit, and put it back a bit looser using the axle as a guide.

thanks again.

Offline Bodi

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Re: "Tight" wheel bearings?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2014, 01:43:49 PM »
If you put the axle in from the retained bearing side and tap the end of the axle "head" a few times (I would use a dead blow hammer) it should align the bearings OK. If the bore is really tight this may damage the floating bearing, but it should be free enough to shift the mm or two needed without severe bashing. Pouring some heat via a propane torch into the hub around where the bearing sits will help, but not so hot that the bearing seals or lube are damaged.