Author Topic: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries  (Read 2200 times)

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Offline hardpattern

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'82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« on: November 12, 2014, 06:16:50 AM »
Hello, all.  Glad to have finally joined the club. 
I'm running (trying to run) the EVO2 8 battery on my '82 cb650 cafĂ© project.  I've got the battery, magnetic ignition switch, flasher relay, etc. mounted under a seat from an '05 Triumph speed triple.  I've melted two batteries...like, completely.  Perhaps I grounded the positive cable somewhere on the frame?  I can't see where that would have happened, unless it was just a bit of the unwrapped cable barely touching the frame.  Could the actual ignition switch cause such an overheating if it is not protected with rubber?  I'll tighten things up, and probably rubberize the frame under the seat. 
Is there another type of short in stock electronics that could open the circuit and cause that much heat to build?  I'm wondering...could it be the rectifier? I'll test the diodes later today.  The voltage at the battery at idle is a solid 13+.  Should it increase dramatically with rpm?  I know anything over 14.4 is too much.  Both meltdowns have happened as I pull into the driveway, after a faster, higher rpm speed run off of the interstate, one block from home.
Any thoughts/expertise would be appreciated.
Thanks so much.
'75 naked "oldwing"
'82 cb650
'97 gsx-r750
'08 drz400sm

RIDE THEM ALL.  RIDE ALL DAY.

Offline dave500

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 12:00:17 PM »
check the charging rate at high rpm.

Offline strynboen

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 12:25:39 PM »
thek the volts at driving..tape a multimeter om tank and drive a speed trip...
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Offline hardpattern

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 09:47:25 PM »
Thanks, guys.  I'll try to get a run with the multimeter, and report the volts.
'75 naked "oldwing"
'82 cb650
'97 gsx-r750
'08 drz400sm

RIDE THEM ALL.  RIDE ALL DAY.

Offline hardpattern

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 09:57:10 AM »
I wasn't able to ride today, but I taped up the multimeter and rev'd it.  Warm, at idle, open choke, headlight and taillight burning, I measured a consistent average of 12.4 +/-, sometimes 12.2, sometimes 12.5.  At 8,000-9,000 rpm (read on an aftermarket Dime City tachometer), the highest it peaked was between 13.1 and 13.3; I sustained rpm for 2 seconds, or so (the tape was failing at the terminals).
I'd like to recheck idle using my tach. setting on my multimeter, but I cant figure out where to measure at the coil.  Am I overthinking it?  The measurement I thought I was getting at plug number 1 just seems off.  Incidentally, I've set timing, and I am very happy with the way the bikes running....when it's not obliterating batteries all over my driveway.
So, I realize a sustained ride is necessary to really check the voltage at the battery.  But any thoughts on rectifier?  I think a PO replaced the rectifier before I owned the bike; it looks to not be 32 years old.
Thanks, all.
'75 naked "oldwing"
'82 cb650
'97 gsx-r750
'08 drz400sm

RIDE THEM ALL.  RIDE ALL DAY.

Offline strynboen

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 11:10:13 AM »
if the light are off..goes it then vild..high volt??
are you driving vith no light for longer times
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Offline dave500

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 11:47:24 AM »
itll take more than 2 seconds for the voltage to start climbing.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 12:00:30 PM »
One of the functions of the battery is to supply a stable voltage, without allowing it to change rapidly.  As such, you should NEVER see it changing it's voltage rapidly unless severely stressed, by excessive loads or excessive charging.  You cannot positively determine if your battery can be overcharged in a 2 second test, particularly if you haven't established what the current SOC (State of Charge) is for the battery installed.

Lithium batteries operate at a different voltage basis than the lead acid types the original charging system.
Battery SOC for a lead acid is 12.7 V full (static) and 11.9V empty.  Lower voltages are somewhat tolerable without damage.  And, provided voltages up to 14.7V can be absorbed.
LiFEPO4 batteries are 14.4V full and 12.8 empty, with further voltage drops due to loading causing irreparable damage.  The same is true for over voltage application with slightly less severity for damage.

Further, your present battery has 8 cells, meaning 4 pairs of cells, 2 ea wired in parallel and then the 4 pairs wired in series.  With cells wired in parallel, there is no way to monitor cell imbalance from the battery posts.  Better quality LiFEPO4 batteries will have an extra connector for connecting to individual cells for balance purposes.

Once the cells are imbalanced, you cannot balance them from the battery posts, which all automotive and motorcycle charging systems have as the only means of charge.  Charging from the posts only results in some cells being overcharged, while others are undercharged.  Overcharging damages the technology, as well as over discharge of an only partially charged cell within the battery assembly.

Your bike can put very large loads on the battery, particularly during starting operation.  210 cranking amps is common for a starting battery.  Your charging system can put out 14 to 15 Amps maximum.
So when you electric start the bike, the battery cannot be at 100% charge, and it will take 10 times longer to restore the energy taken from it by the alternator.  Simple numbers,  2 seconds to electric start, 20 seconds or more to restore, IF nothing else on the bike is taking power from the alternator like headlights ignitions, etc.  Most SOHC4s draw about 10 amps whenever the key is switched on.  That only leaves 4 amps to restore whatever was sucked out of it during electric start.  It's never going to happen in 2 seconds.

If you EVER run a LiFEPO4 battery below its minimum, it must then be charged with a balance charger to equalize the cells, or risk damage to the battery pack.

The next issue is what the MC voltage regulator instructs the charging system to do to the battery.  LiFEPO4 batteries demand that charge current be curtailed when the voltage reaches 14.4 V.  This voltage indicates that the battery has been charged to it's full capacity.  Further charge current damages at least some of the internal cells.  If your charger continues to provide 1-2 amps above the voltage where the battery is fully charged, you guessed it, damage.

So, your present goal to ensure future batteries aren't damaged by your bike's charging system, is to find out what it supplies to your battery posts when you know the battery's state of charge is topped up to peak.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline heyitsrama

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 10:31:49 AM »

If you EVER run a LiFEPO4 battery below its minimum, it must then be charged with a balance charger to equalize the cells, or risk damage to the battery pack.

The next issue is what the MC voltage regulator instructs the charging system to do to the battery.  LiFEPO4 batteries demand that charge current be curtailed when the voltage reaches 14.4 V.  This voltage indicates that the battery has been charged to it's full capacity.  Further charge current damages at least some of the internal cells.  If your charger continues to provide 1-2 amps above the voltage where the battery is fully charged, you guessed it, damage.


How does one manage to ensure that the charge current does not hit that 14.4v?
I believe that the regulator manages this correct? But it will changed based on the RPM range that you're sitting in?

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Offline strynboen

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 11:24:03 AM »
650 have a ekstra elektronik (have i read somhvere) for load volt kontroll. but if it fail. it .blown batteryes

. older sohc dont have that elektronic..they have only load kontroll...no real volt kontroll..but vith oldtype batteries it regulates itself..this batteries are robust and simpel..and can  better take volt peaks
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2014, 11:33:39 AM »
How does one manage to ensure that the charge current does not hit that 14.4v?
I believe that the regulator manages this correct?
It should be, yes.

But it will changed based on the RPM range that you're sitting in?
Indirectly, yes.  The alternator provides variable power based upon RPM.  The Voltage regulator throttles the alternator output power based on what it senses as the battery's needs.  The regulator needs an accurate report of what the battery's voltage status actually is.  And, it should be tuned for the needs of the battery technology selected.  Otherwise, you are depending on the abuse tolerance of the technology used in the battery position.  Lead acid tech is pretty high tolerance in comparison to lithium tech.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline hardpattern

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 09:01:27 AM »
Hi, all.  Well, it took a few weeks to get back to the electrical mystery.  I taped up the multimeter, and ran through the gears, at sustained RPMs.  I never got a meter reading over 13.48, not near the Ballistic maximum of 14.4.  I'll try another run tomorrow, but I'm thinking I must have shorted out the previous batteries by--maybe--shorting the positive cable at the ignition switch end against the frame...?  I don't think the actual positive terminal would have made contact, given my setup.  Perhaps it did.  At first test, all the rectifier diodes test well, too.  Is there a more direct way to test for a short?  Using a multimeter, wouldn't current show up as voltage by touching the positive probe to the frame?
Thanks for reading.
'75 naked "oldwing"
'82 cb650
'97 gsx-r750
'08 drz400sm

RIDE THEM ALL.  RIDE ALL DAY.

Offline calj737

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 09:47:14 AM »
It will only read current if the RED lead is on the POS and the BLACK is properly GROUNDED. Unless your frame is bare metal, you may not be getting a proper ground.

Your test while riding, if you revv'ed the bike past 4,000 should have produced a charging voltage higher than you list if you sustained the revs long enough, the battery actually was in a state of deficit sufficient to require the draw (alternator charge allowed by the regulator to reach higher than what you posted) and your regulator/alternator are performing properly.

You should be able to test with the voltage at the battery with key OFF, then with key ON, then at carrying RPMs to determine if the alternator is producing current and being allowed to reach the battery by the regulator. Without going all the way back thru your thread, have you done this and posted these readings? I saw your post about the DCC tach, but you don't need to surpass 5,000 RPMs to validate charging limits.
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Offline hardpattern

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2014, 08:25:22 AM »
You should be able to test with the voltage at the battery with key OFF, then with key ON, then at carrying RPMs to determine if the alternator is producing current and being allowed to reach the battery by the regulator. Without going all the way back thru your thread, have you done this and posted these readings? I saw your post about the DCC tach, but you don't need to surpass 5,000 RPMs to validate charging limits.
[/quote]

You're right, calj737.  This morning, I got 12.96 with key OFF, 12.69 first reading with key ON, and it dropped 1/100th of a point about every second in key ON.  I let it drop to about 12.57 before I started the engine.  As the engine warmed with the choke closed, the reading increased steadily.  Once warmed, I rev'd it to 5,000 in fifth gear (I'm doing this on a stand, not actually riding, because I don't want to mix variables by stowing the electronics back under the seat and potentially shorting against the frame).  I ran it at 5,000 rpm for 2 minutes, and the reading gradually increased--rapidly first, then somewhat slower--until I reached 13.81.  I rev'd it to 6,000 rpm once or twice during that 2 minutes.  At this point, I started thinking about overheating, even though it's cold, and I have a fan pointed right on the engine. 

I'm thinking it would have continued to increase.  Let's say that it would, in fact, exceed the lithium battery's limit of 14.4.  Is this an electronics problem, or a case of wrong battery?  I know other people have run them on the 650, but I don't how successfully.  Doesn't the increasing reading indicate that my alternator and regulator are functioning?  Thoughts?
Thanks a lot.
'75 naked "oldwing"
'82 cb650
'97 gsx-r750
'08 drz400sm

RIDE THEM ALL.  RIDE ALL DAY.

Offline andrewk

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 09:25:09 AM »
The increasing reading does indicate that it is doing something, but it could still be causing issues.  It's a lot harder to overload a 650 charging system than the earlier mid-four, but make sure that you don't have more draw than the thing can put out.  High watt headlights and heated accessories can add up fast if you're using them.

I'd start with a complete test/inspection of the charging system, which is more than the voltage check-  This is a rewrite of the clymer material plus some bonus-  http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/DOHCcharge.html

Test your rotor both cold and hot.  I've found that coming up to temp can change how these things behave.  You'll need an ammeter to properly perform the system test as illustrated in that link, I bought a cheapie at a farm store.

If the charging system is in good order, the battery should live ok, but these things are sensitive on both ends of the voltage spectrum, as Two-Tired was saying.  Undervoltage is as bad as over.  Even if you run the battery a little flat, it really needs a balance charge to avoid cell damage.  Low tolerance for error with these, but they fit into small spaces. 

Offline andrewk

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2014, 09:27:14 AM »
Also found this, which has a "handy" worksheet to help you out with the testing procedure.  http://www.cb750c.com/publicdocs/charging_system/genesound_charging_system.html

The SOHC650 and DOHC systems are the same.  They're kind of a pain in the arse compared to the simple SOHC versions before them, but the increased output sure is nice, and once in good order, they last a good while.

Hope this helps!

Offline calj737

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 02:38:57 PM »
if your battery read 13.8 at 5,000 then I don't see a problem. Thats the "full charge" state of your battery and the regulator is limiting the alternator from distributing more charge output to it. Working like it should in my opinion...

Now, if you drove around town in stop and go, with lights on, you might see the voltage meter read 14.4v indicating a "drain" on the battery that the alternator is serving, and the regulator is allowing. I know an earlier test you ran had the VM "taped" to the battery, so perhaps a more stable installation or, with a fan directed at the motor, in neutral, let it idle for a sustained period to draw down the battery (while watching the VM connected to the battery). This is a more accurate example of potential charging needs.

(I'm sure theres other methods of doing this, but its pretty reliable and you aren't looking at a meter/gauge while riding "unsafe" and you can let it go as long as the motor is cooling under air circulation).

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Offline hardpattern

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2014, 05:10:29 PM »
Thanks so much, guys.  I can't wait to get into the help material that andrewk posted.  I'm also going to try a third time to get the volts over 14 at 5,000 rpm.  Getting there...
'75 naked "oldwing"
'82 cb650
'97 gsx-r750
'08 drz400sm

RIDE THEM ALL.  RIDE ALL DAY.

Offline dave500

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Re: '82 CB650 cooks a couple of Ballistic LFP batteries
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2014, 11:08:37 PM »
make sure any and all connections are clean and tight,the regulator references voltage but that voltage has gone through a couple of connections and must be the same or slightly less than battery positive,check the battery voltage key on and compare it to the regulator black wire voltage key on.

these regulators actually step the voltage down to the field coil limiting its magnetism and so the alternators output,its not done gradually but a simple high or low power type system,your best of with a lead acid battery with them.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 11:12:54 PM by dave500 »