Topic: Bent timing advancer shaft

[C5paul]

Looking into this futher I have to agree with Scottly. It will not be possible to make one shaft to work in both engines.

The problem is the outside shoulder for the o-ring. That shoulder sits against the advancer, and locates the advancer in relation to the crankshaft. This is where the approx 10mm difference comes in. Not at the advancer end of the shaft. For that shoulder to be moved outward on the 750. It would also move the advancer outward away from the crankshaft. It is highly likely that your ignition system also uses the shoulder/crankshaft to locate the trigger wheel. My thought of changing the o-ring position will not work. 

However, As you have already gone throught the process of developing the shaft. It would make sense to make it available as an aftermarket replacement also. I am sure that it would be most welcomed due to the fact that they are nearly impossible to find. Maybe a nice introduction to your ignition system??

MiGhost,

I understand what you guys are discovering, and I'll have to modify the 650 shaft to place the "upper" o-ring shoulder exactly where the 750 sits.

I do not have to worry about the 650, since our standoff is centered using the shaft itself, and not the shoulder.

Wow, sharp eyes both of you! I have a 650 crank and cases now, so tomorrow I'll head down to the machine shop and see if we can create a shaft that fits the 750 OEM advancer parts, and still seals oil in the 650 engine.

[HondaMan]

I had a hard time finding one for my last bike.  Ended up someone here had a spare. I agree probablly not a lot of money to be made, but  it would be nice to have a source for them!

This was how my Transistor Ignition started...some 4000 units ago.
Be careful what you wish for!

[scottly]

MiGhost,

I understand what you guys are discovering, and I'll have to modify the 650 shaft to place the "upper" o-ring shoulder exactly where the 750 sits.

I do not have to worry about the 650, since our standoff is centered using the shaft itself, and not the shoulder.

Wow, sharp eyes both of you! I have a 650 crank and cases now, so tomorrow I'll head down to the machine shop and see if we can create a shaft that fits the 750 OEM advancer parts, and still seals oil in the 650 engine.

The rotor (standoff???) should locate on the end of the crank-shaft, not centered by the stud. I've investigated the differences between the 650 and 750 ignitions, and they go beyond what you've discovered so far. Hope you got a pick-up plate with the 650 motor.

[brandEn]

I had a hard time finding one for my last bike.  Ended up someone here had a spare. I agree probablly not a lot of money to be made, but  it would be nice to have a source for them!

This was how my Transistor Ignition started...some 4000 units ago.
Be careful what you wish for!

You have made 4000 ignition units? Holy cow!

[C5paul]

MiGhost,

I understand what you guys are discovering, and I'll have to modify the 650 shaft to place the "upper" o-ring shoulder exactly where the 750 sits.

I do not have to worry about the 650, since our standoff is centered using the shaft itself, and not the shoulder.

Wow, sharp eyes both of you! I have a 650 crank and cases now, so tomorrow I'll head down to the machine shop and see if we can create a shaft that fits the 750 OEM advancer parts, and still seals oil in the 650 engine.

The rotor (standoff???) should locate on the end of the crank-shaft, not centered by the stud. I've investigated the differences between the 650 and 750 ignitions, and they go beyond what you've discovered so far. Hope you got a pick-up plate with the 650 motor.

We don't use the stock pick-up plate on most of our kits, including this one. The ignition module sits right on the engine where the OEM plate used to sit. Give me a call if you want. I'll be at the machine shop tomorrow working on this. 920-403-0555

[C5paul]

Today I brought one of my CB750 engines and a friends CB650 engine to our machinist. We spend a few hours measuring, swapping parts, and making notes. It appears we can create a stud for our CB650 kit would still work on the CB750 and still use the stock points advancer (for the 750).

The biggest problem with trying to use one part on both engines, is the cross drilled oil holes are not at the same depth. I'm not sure why Honda didn't use a bolt like they use on CB350F/400F/500F/550F engines, but I think we've got an upper hand now. Our first attempt failed because the 650 shoulder stuck out too far and contacted the 750 timing advancer. (see picture)

We are trimming the "front" of the stud shoulder, reducing overall width of the o-ring slot, and shortening the total shaft length to match the stock CB750. If we do all these things, our calculator tells us it will work.

I left both engines at the machine shop, and we'll return later this week to see how they fit. 
We will NOT be able to use the CB650 timing advancer but that was never my plan. All I wanted was to offer this part to anyone needing a CB750 replacement shaft due to crash, stripped threads, or corrosion issues.

[HondaMan]

I had a hard time finding one for my last bike.  Ended up someone here had a spare. I agree probablly not a lot of money to be made, but  it would be nice to have a source for them!

This was how my Transistor Ignition started...some 4000 units ago.
Be careful what you wish for!

You have made 4000 ignition units? Holy cow!

That was my reaction, too! I just ordered another batch of PC boards, and when I put the receipt in the file with the others, there was the story(!).

Back to the 'real' thread...

[C5paul]

I had a hard time finding one for my last bike.  Ended up someone here had a spare. I agree probablly not a lot of money to be made, but  it would be nice to have a source for them!

This was how my Transistor Ignition started...some 4000 units ago.
Be careful what you wish for!

You have made 4000 ignition units? Holy cow!

That was my reaction, too! I just ordered another batch of PC boards, and when I put the receipt in the file with the others, there was the story(!).

Back to the 'real' thread...

That is quite the accomplishment HondaMan, and every company must start at zero. We crawl, then walk, then run...and many companies never live long enough to even walk. I learn every day, eat a slice of humble pie every day, and can't wait to have thousands of satisfied customers like you do. Way to go!!

So back to the thread, which addresses the task of using one "C5 production part" and modifying to work on another more popular bike. It will reduce my production cost, lower my inventory, and help bikers find a part that is difficult to replace. Hopefully a few of them decide to purchase our ignition, but if not, we still helped keep old Honda bikes on the road or race track.
 

[PeWe]

 I bought one at yamiya....


Bert

I bought 2 .... + 2 o-rings they have and must be mounted on the shaft
...by the way....Your avatar is a DOHC? nice with correct oil

[HondaMan]

I had a hard time finding one for my last bike.  Ended up someone here had a spare. I agree probablly not a lot of money to be made, but  it would be nice to have a source for them!

This was how my Transistor Ignition started...some 4000 units ago.
Be careful what you wish for!

You have made 4000 ignition units? Holy cow!

That was my reaction, too! I just ordered another batch of PC boards, and when I put the receipt in the file with the others, there was the story(!).

Back to the 'real' thread...

That is quite the accomplishment HondaMan, and every company must start at zero. We crawl, then walk, then run...and many companies never live long enough to even walk. I learn every day, eat a slice of humble pie every day, and can't wait to have thousands of satisfied customers like you do. Way to go!!

So back to the thread, which addresses the task of using one "C5 production part" and modifying to work on another more popular bike. It will reduce my production cost, lower my inventory, and help bikers find a part that is difficult to replace. Hopefully a few of them decide to purchase our ignition, but if not, we still helped keep old Honda bikes on the road or race track.
 

In my 'day job' I am an Electrical/Electronic Controls Engineer (now 35+ years of it), so if you need any help I can offer, just say so? I haven't been able to help much with the 650 guys so far.

[scottly]

I haven't been able to help much with the 650 guys so far.

Hey Mark, Pinhead has already noted that Chevy HEI modules will work with the 650 pick-ups.

[C5paul]

Thanks HondaMan. I may have shared this already but the CB350-750 all use the same diameter ignition module, and all use a 1.075" tall standoff for our ignitions.
But the CB650, that beast uses an odd size points plate (3.25" not 3.66"), CBX1000 style mounting holes, a shaft size that is "oddball" to say the least, and the standoff height is 1.165" (British and Harley Davidson length).

Where do you live? It would be fun to work with you on a future project. I have plenty of requests for more kits.

[HondaMan]

I haven't been able to help much with the 650 guys so far.

Hey Mark, Pinhead has already noted that Chevy HEI modules will work with the 650 pick-ups.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that exchange! I have to remember that...

[HondaMan]

Thanks HondaMan. I may have shared this already but the CB350-750 all use the same diameter ignition module, and all use a 1.075" tall standoff for our ignitions.
But the CB650, that beast uses an odd size points plate (3.25" not 3.66"), CBX1000 style mounting holes, a shaft size that is "oddball" to say the least, and the standoff height is 1.165" (British and Harley Davidson length).

Where do you live? It would be fun to work with you on a future project. I have plenty of requests for more kits.

I'm in Colorado, where our city just voted all the Pot Shops out of town. They have until late December to scram.

[C5paul]

Today we finished the project.

For those jumping in, let me give a quick review.

In order to install our C5 ignition kit into a CB650 we had to manufacture a special spacer, and due to Honda placing a "thicker" end on the shaft, it still did not fit as tight as I would have liked. Since it was similar to the CB750 we tried swapping parts with no success.
The o-ring to seal the cases was in different spots, and the CB750 timing shaft isn't even available any more.

So my friend Ken and I designed a shaft that fits the CB750 SOHC engine (can be used for points or the C5 ignition) and this new part also works when installing our C5 into the CB650. I can keep the costs lower, and also help more people who NEED that part. 

I am very happy. It came down to thousandths of an inch but our shaft fits both engines. Anyone who bends, strips out, or snaps off their CB750 shaft can order a new one from us. American made, with a new o-ring and locking nut.

For anyone wanting to install a C5 ignition onto their CB650 we have a new shaft to make the installation easy as falling off a stool.

[andrewk]

This might be a weird question, and I'm sure its nothing you tested for, but since this works with the OEM 750 advance unit, could one theoretically put points on a 650 using the 750 advance unit and your shaft?  It's counter-intuitive to using your ignition, but for the hybrid guys running (weak) 550 charging systems on the 650 crank, points are still nice for daily driving in traffic if you run bright lights.  Per some previous conversations with you I've every confidence that your unit doesn't have the "dyna plague," (1000 degree dwell ) but for folks stuck on points, might be an option!

I'd be willing to buy a shaft and try it out, got plenty of engines to play with.   Will want a nice straight one for my next 750 build anyway!

[C5paul]

This might be a weird question, and I'm sure its nothing you tested for, but since this works with the OEM 750 advance unit, could one theoretically put points on a 650 using the 750 advance unit and your shaft?  It's counter-intuitive to using your ignition, but for the hybrid guys running (weak) 550 charging systems on the 650 crank, points are still nice for daily driving in traffic if you run bright lights.  Per some previous conversations with you I've every confidence that your unit doesn't have the "dyna plague," (1000 degree dwell ) but for folks stuck on points, might be an option!

I'd be willing to buy a shaft and try it out, got plenty of engines to play with.   Will want a nice straight one for my next 750 build anyway!

I was just talking with someone this morning about that very question.
The CB550 or 750 advancer should work. The shaft diameter is just shy of 6mm.

If you really want to reduce battery draw, you should use our C5 ignition. It is the lowest average amp draw of any ignition that I know of, and far less than a points system. Our dwell at idle is barely 30 degrees!

But I understand that points are an affordable option. Does a CB750 or CB550 advancer assembly fit the CB650 crank? If so then our shaft should work. If you purchase one and it wont fit I will gladly refund your money.

[andrewk]

the 550 advance fits, but the pin is drilled 180 degrees out.  Simple as switching the blue and yellow wires!

I'll PM you for purchase details.

[C5paul]

the 550 advance fits, but the pin is drilled 180 degrees out.  Simple as switching the blue and yellow wires!

I'll PM you for purchase details.

That makes sense that it fits, but odd the timing is 180 off. It was common on the Kawi and Suzuki triple 2 strokes to use the same timing plate but they rotated the timing marker so you can't interchange them.

Thanks so much for sharing that information and I will add to our website. I REALLY appreciate your help!!

[goldarrow]

the 550 advance fits, but the pin is drilled 180 degrees out.  Simple as switching the blue and yellow wires!

Are you sure about the pin position?

[KiefRichards]

[/quote]

I'm in Colorado, where our city just voted all the Pot Shops out of town. They have until late December to scram.


[/quote]

Now, chase out all the liquor stores and you'll be set!

[andrewk]

the 550 advance fits, but the pin is drilled 180 degrees out.  Simple as switching the blue and yellow wires!

Are you sure about the pin position?

Yep. The locating holes themselves are also different sizes, 650 is bigger than 550.  Also an "easy remedy" as one can drill the 550 advance unit to accept the larger locating pin.  I think this design change was in the name of "progression" to the 650's electronic ignition, but that's speculation.

Paul, happy to help.  I'll be in touch to buy one of these! (and an ignition someday too )

[HondaMan]

I'm in Colorado, where our city just voted all the Pot Shops out of town. They have until late December to scram.

Now, chase out all the liquor stores and you'll be set!

If we did, the moonshiners would take over!
 

[HondaMan]

This might be a weird question, and I'm sure its nothing you tested for, but since this works with the OEM 750 advance unit, could one theoretically put points on a 650 using the 750 advance unit and your shaft?  It's counter-intuitive to using your ignition, but for the hybrid guys running (weak) 550 charging systems on the 650 crank, points are still nice for daily driving in traffic if you run bright lights.  Per some previous conversations with you I've every confidence that your unit doesn't have the "dyna plague," (1000 degree dwell ) but for folks stuck on points, might be an option!

I'd be willing to buy a shaft and try it out, got plenty of engines to play with.   Will want a nice straight one for my next 750 build anyway!

I was just talking with someone this morning about that very question.
The CB550 or 750 advancer should work. The shaft diameter is just shy of 6mm.

If you really want to reduce battery draw, you should use our C5 ignition. It is the lowest average amp draw of any ignition that I know of, and far less than a points system. Our dwell at idle is barely 30 degrees!

But I understand that points are an affordable option. Does a CB750 or CB550 advancer assembly fit the CB650 crank? If so then our shaft should work. If you purchase one and it wont fit I will gladly refund your money.

Paul:
Is yours a CDI, or...?

[C5paul]

This might be a weird question, and I'm sure its nothing you tested for, but since this works with the OEM 750 advance unit, could one theoretically put points on a 650 using the 750 advance unit and your shaft?  It's counter-intuitive to using your ignition, but for the hybrid guys running (weak) 550 charging systems on the 650 crank, points are still nice for daily driving in traffic if you run bright lights.  Per some previous conversations with you I've every confidence that your unit doesn't have the "dyna plague," (1000 degree dwell ) but for folks stuck on points, might be an option!

I'd be willing to buy a shaft and try it out, got plenty of engines to play with.   Will want a nice straight one for my next 750 build anyway!

Inductive system, not CDI. No external control modules either.

We use 3 full sparks, and our 3 ohm coils are of Section Bobbin design.

I've got o-rings coming for this new kit. Carpy's will be selling this shaft also. He indicated there is no readily available o-ring that fits correctly, but I have some the correct size coming hopefully late next week. You can order the shaft on our website under "Motorcycle Ignitions". It is listed just below the CB750 kit.

thanks!

I was just talking with someone this morning about that very question.
The CB550 or 750 advancer should work. The shaft diameter is just shy of 6mm.

If you really want to reduce battery draw, you should use our C5 ignition. It is the lowest average amp draw of any ignition that I know of, and far less than a points system. Our dwell at idle is barely 30 degrees!

But I understand that points are an affordable option. Does a CB750 or CB550 advancer assembly fit the CB650 crank? If so then our shaft should work. If you purchase one and it wont fit I will gladly refund your money.

Paul:
Is yours a CDI, or...?