Topic: Rats Nest in the Headlight Bucket

[oldhatt45]

OK, I can't be the first person to recognize a Rat's nest when I see it.

So here's the question.

Has anyone tried (and hopefully succeeded) in doing something to clean up the Rat's nest and make life simpler for themselves in terms of the wiring inside the Headlight Bucket??

Possibly using Terminal strips or something to organize that mass of rubber/plastic coated copper?

If you have, pictures would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Charlie

[oldhatt45]

calj737,

The Motogadget M-Unit and M-Button look very interesting.

1.  Did this eliminate the wiring in the headlight bucket??

2.  Where did you mount the M-Unit?

3.  Did you have to do away with some part of the original harness?

4.  Did you do this on a 750?

5.  How did you have to modify the wiring schematic?

6.  A little leery of going to an electronic setup.  If you have a problem while out on the road, can you get home with a bad M-Unit?

Anxiously looking for info!!!

Thanks,

Charlie

[dhall57]

Other than being a rats nest(and I agree it  is) is it still the original set up and not been tampered with and everything working fine. If so I would leave it alone and not try to change or modify what Mr Honda did 40 years ago. I try to keep 7 words in my memory bank with all my old Honda's- If it ain't broke don't fix it Just my 2 cents

[oldhatt45]

dhall57,

Under most circumstances I would be doing exactly as you said "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

This is possibly a little mitigating.

I have/had to disconnect the wiring for the handlebar switches.  11 wires for the left and 5 wires for the right.  That's 16 wires and connections.  I have to clean up and possibly re-chrome the handlebars depending how clean I can get them.

So, my dilemma is with probably just about half the connections and wires disconnected (as a guess), and going to need to be reconnected do I want to continue with the Rat's nest or see if there is a better solution so that in the event I do have a future problem (not that, that would ever happen - LOL) it would be easier to deal with.  Hence, my dilemma. 

Just trying to figure out my options and then make a decision after figuring out what would be my best course of action.

Thanks,

Charlie

[Don R]

 You can organize things in there to a degree without changing much. The connectors need to be cleaned anyway while they are apart. check to be sure the colors match when they come apart, if so they will go back easily with no tracing or troubleshooting. Some silicone spray will help slide the cables in/out of the handlebars.
 Sometimes i remove the hard plastic covering and replace with some good shrink tube.

Just my observations and a couple tips good luck with whatever you do.

[TwoTired]

I don't really understand why the concern over a "rat's nest" inside an electrical junction box.
Do you drive around with the headlight dangling from the wires?

Will you also crusade for clean up of every junction box within every home in the world?  There's hundreds of those inside a house!

The Headlight bucket IS a junction box and is well sorted with color coded wires and strategic use of male and female connectors.

Really, how hard it is to connect and orange male to an orange female connector?  Is this a concern only for the colorblind?  If so, then relabel with number tags.

You want a mess to clean up, just watch all those moving parts inside the crankcase/transmission!

[db22]

Oldhatt: I hear you. Maybe I'm just too dumb, but it seems that reconnecting all that wiring and then smooshing it back into the bucket is a tiny bit more complicated for us beginners than TT makes it out to be.  Next spring I'll be doing a complete re-connect on my CB550 for the second time since I've had a SOHC4.  I took pictures, I made notes, and I hope experience will make the 2nd time easier, but I bet it takes me a whole weekend or more to get everything to light, blink, beep and crank as it should.

Somebody must have put relays into the bucket and moved all the connections back under the seat, or into a project box attached discreetly behind the headlight.  My second CB550, a project bike that is still a season or two away from the road, is aimed in that direction, but I don't yet have the knowledge to wire it from scratch.

[oldhatt45]

Hey TwoTired,
It sounds like you need another cup of coffee. 
It's just the anal engineer in me.  I see something disorganized (or seemingly so) and I want to clean it up. 
To answer a bit more directly, if it were a just a case of just connecting 1 orange wire to another orange wire, I agree, no big deal.  In fact, just connecting a Yellow-Red wire to another Yellow-Red wire, again, no problem.
 
But I have this problem with my fingers being too big and having to move 20+ wires and being able to find the connectors.

That anal engineer in me just started wondering if anyone else had done something to clean things up. 

And during the course of my rebuild and restore, I just might have to delve into "moving parts inside the crankcase/transmission", but I'm sincerely hoping I don't have too. 

But Thank You for responding and bringing a bit of "WTF are you complaining about" reality back to the conversation! 

db22,
I understand where you're coming from.  Not to worry about TwoTired.  He just needs another cup of coffee.  
He means well, I'm sure.  And I'm sure you'll get things squared away on your 550 with no problem, and you'll know exactly how everything goes together.  And that is a definite Plus!!!!!

Thanks again,

Charlie

[Bodi]

I though TT was rather diplomatic responding to a suggestion of a $400.00 fix for a basically nonexistent problem.
If you opened the bucket on a new bike you would have seen a relatively organized set of wires. Sure they were all new and clean, but they were also untangled and the headlight installed easily.
After POs replace handlebars, turn signals, and headlight a few times the wires become that rats nest tangle, with loose wires hanging because they didn't know where to connect them or had deleted the components or ground terminals they were meant for.
Just disconnecting everything (identifying any non original connections that are not color-to-color) and then carefully reconnecting them to avoid tangles will clear up most of the rattiness. And the headlight should go in without much cramming. Cleaning the wires with simple soapy water should bring their colors back to life.

[oldhatt45]

Bodi,

Under most circumstances I would agree with you.
One small thing.  I am the PO.   And in the 38 years I've owned her, the only time the headlight bucket was opened up was to put in the connection wire for the Vetter.  After 38 years, I kind of forgot what a PITA it was sorting out the wires.  I guess I have no one to blame but myself.   

Well, after I get my restore/rebuild done maybe I won't need to go into the bucket for another 38 years. 

Thanks,

Charlie

[MCRider]

Gotta agree with TT and BOdi. Many's the time I've been tempted to cleanup the rats nest. Until the beam is pushed back into place, then its forgotten till the next time, often quite a period between openings.

I just put in the HLight relays supplied by HondaMan. "Never" I say to myself " will all those wires AND the relays go into the bucket". But in fact, a little care in routing, then some gentle formiing of the wires into the depths of the bucket, the beam lays right up and the screws go in.

Wouldn't blame anybody for anything done to clean it up. As with so many things, you may be the only one who will ever know and appreciate the work.  And that's enough.

Won't be me , though.   

[70CB750]

At least it matches the way Americans do they electrical installations.

[Stev-o]

I don't like it either but it won't broke. I would prefer multiple wire connectors at least for the controls, instead of all single wire bullet connectors

[TwoTired]

I don't like it either but it won't broke. I would prefer multiple wire connectors at least for the controls, instead of all single wire bullet connectors

Much easier to replace individual failed bullet connectors than a whole block multi connector, imo.  Particularly, if only one position happens to melt the block connector housing.

However, the 77 78 models do have block connectors for the handlebar controls.

[ekpent]

The 75-76 F model 750's tried to address that problem in the bucket somewhat by moving another blob down of wires to another junction box on the front of the frame. Personally I have never had an issue with doing the wires in the bucket and have had very little reason to go in once all was sorted.

[setdog]

What condition is the bike in?  That effort may be better spent sorting out
Something more worthwhile like air/fuel ratio.

[Bailgang]

From a cost effective point of view I imagine you could clean up the rats nest to a degree but not much. You could use block connectors which may help however you better like the handlebars and controls you have because you'll never get that block connector through the handle bars unless you separated all the connections from the block connector or snipped it off which either way would defeat the purpose. The wires from my controls on my 77 F2 does have block connectors from the factory and it does simplify things a bit however the reason it works is because the handlebar control wiring on 77/78 750's runs outside the bars rather than inside the bars as in earlier 750's. So you end up with a compromise, one way has the wires hidden within the bars giving it a nice clean look but makes it a PITA should you choose to swap bars or controls where the other is a breeze to swap bars or controls but it's wiring runs outside the bars and isn't hidden and it's that visual appeal that some can be picky about.

[oldhatt45]

setdog,
For me the condition doesn't really matter.  Although, the bike has been in my garage(s) for the last 26+ years out of the 38 years I've owned her.  She will get all the effort required to bring her back to as near showroom as I can get.  THanks.

Bailgang,
It's not cost effective, but these bikes are not what I think anyone would consider cost effective. 
It's more like a Love affair. 

What I was thinking about was something like a row or two of bullet connectors attached somehow to the headlight shell, maybe with rubber standoffs, where the wiring would be kind of sorted out where you could actually see what you're doing and be able to connect/disconnect things if you have a problem and not have to go searching in the Rat's Nest the next day to reconnect what  you disconnected the day before.

So far the only thing to alleviate the Rat's Nest condition that I've seen is the M-Unit and M-Button setup from Motogadget as suggested by calj737.  If I had gotten a bike that had questionable electrics, I would probably and very gladly plunk down the money for that unit, but in my case I know the complete history of my bike.

But I'm not sure I want to go that far, since it would be a major rewire of the electrical system which in all likelihood doesn't need doing, since the wiring I have is in good shape (meaning not hard and real crusty looking).  Just difficult to get the wiring sorted out so I can redo switches and handlebars. 

Thanks for the thoughts,

Charlie

[TwoTired]

It's not cost effective, but these bikes are not what I think anyone would consider cost effective. 

Whoa.  Having been an SOHC4 owner since 74, and collecting more 'til I ran out of room.  I believe they certainly have been cost effective.
I've had up to ten of them running and reliable SOHC4s during that time, all of those combined for less that the cost of a single Harley.
It's true, none of them are concours.  But, then how often are concours machines used as daily, reliable drivers?

This is most of the reason I love these bikes so much.  They work and are fun to drive about with minimal maintenance.

[Bailgang]

This is most of the reason I love these bikes so much.  They work and are fun to drive about with minimal maintenance.

My oldest brother was in town the other night so we went out for dinner. During our conversation over dinner he thought I was absolutely out of my mind for messing with older bikes especially a cb750. He just doesn't get it so I didn't bother explaining.

Oldhatt, what ever way or method you choose keep us filled in on how it turns out.

[Don R]

Sometimes, no reason is reason enough I have no words of wisdom. someone said the 77/78's have an improvement. I'd like to see inside one.

[madmtnmotors]

someone said the 77/78's have an improvement. I'd like to see inside one.

My 78' 750K headlight bucket always seemed the same way to me. I have found that (as mention in several replies) some "housekeeping" can improve things, like straightening/aligning the wires, which might take a couple tries to find the most efficient orientation. I also realized that the headlight connector itself contributed a lot to this impression of having to "cram" everything because it protrudes so far into the bucket. The remedy for this is to route the other connectors around the perimeter (mostly down low) of the bucket leaving a "hole" in the center for the headlight connector on the back of the bulb to fit into. Using this approach has made my forays into the "rats nest" much more palatable, and has led me to believe that I can fit relays in there as well (to relieve the load on various switches).

[Bailgang]

Sometimes, no reason is reason enough I have no words of wisdom. someone said the 77/78's have an improvement. I'd like to see inside one.

It's still just as much of a rats nest as the headlight bucket in my kids K3. If anything my F2 has tabs inside the bucket that help keep the wires to the sides of the bucket that I don't recall seeing in my kids K3 giving the headlight connector more room but a PO beat me to it when wiring up a Vetter fairing at some time and I haven't had the patience yet to organize it properly.

[evanphi]

someone said the 77/78's have an improvement. I'd like to see inside one.

My 78' 750K headlight bucket always seemed the same way to me. I have found that (as mention in several replies) some "housekeeping" can improve things, like straightening/aligning the wires, which might take a couple tries to find the most efficient orientation. I also realized that the headlight connector itself contributed a lot to this impression of having to "cram" everything because it protrudes so far into the bucket. The remedy for this is to route the other connectors around the perimeter (mostly down low) of the bucket leaving a "hole" in the center for the headlight connector on the back of the bulb to fit into. Using this approach has made my forays into the "rats nest" much more palatable, and has led me to believe that I can fit relays in there as well (to relieve the load on various switches).

Agreed about the headlight connector...

I kind of splay all the wires out so they are flattened to the back of the bucket like a flower in full bloom, with the headlight connector floating in the middle. Then I set the headlight in no problem.

[Harsh]

I have thought about using a canon plug (Amphenol/Mil-Spec).  They can be had in many pin counts and with thicker and thin pins if necessary.  I have used them for 24+ years in aircraft electronics.