Author Topic: [solved] CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?  (Read 11652 times)

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Offline NastyNip

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[solved] CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« on: November 23, 2014, 04:38:19 PM »
Hey y'all.

Here's the rundown:

A few weeks ago I purchased a '74 CB550K with low miles and well maintained from a person I trust. They have done routine maintenance on it, as well as some nice additions such as SS brakelines to dual front discs, rebuilt master cyl, Dyna S electronic ignition etc.

Here's the problem/symptoms:

In higher RPMs (no tach so I can't give exact numbers, but it's ~20MPH in first) and at maybe half throttle, when accelerating the bike will sometimes begin to stumble for a 1/2 second then catch up. This happens in any gear in mid-high RPMs, intermittently. I notice it most when I flick the throttle a bit in mid-high rpms (like in traffic, lane changing, city riding etc)

The PO said the carbs had been cleaned recently, but just to double check I broke them down and soaked them, cleaned them (the jets looked pristine but I cleaned them anyways), but that didn't seem to help at all, which leads me to believe it's a timing issue; FWIW it also *feels* like a timing issue (my other 550 has points and feels similar to when I goofed those up)

I also tend to notice this occurring when riding under load, namely riding uphill or with another person.

I've never worked with electronic ignition before, what are some steps I could take based on the above symptoms?

Thanks in advance!

Jon
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 01:48:47 AM by NastyNip »
Cheers!

1974 CB550K
1978 CB550K

Offline Duanob

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 05:54:31 PM »
I won't go into a complete list of things here, you can research it as it's been posted a million times.

Rule number numero uno around here is never trust what the PO tells you.  8)

First and foremost do a 3000 mile tune up. Check the condition of plugs while you're at it.

Second make sure your fuel is flowing to carbs freely.

If you still have trouble, then it might be time to get back into the carbs and/or then do a vac sync.

Usually when electronic ignitors go bad they go all the way, either they work or they don't.

Good luck.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
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Offline ekpent

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 10:05:53 PM »
You also never mentioned if your running stock airbox and what type of a muffler system and if the jets in the carbs are stockers.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 10:24:52 PM »
You also never mentioned if your running stock airbox and what type of a muffler system and if the jets in the carbs are stockers.

...what he said...^^^

And then, check the ohms of the plug caps. If they are 5000 ohm caps, then they must be within 800 ohms of each other on any one coil. If they are OEM caps, they are due for replacement, long ago.

If you have the "Green" 3-ohm coils along with that Dyna S, you have a [much] larger problem to fix... :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Airbusboy

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 04:06:58 AM »
Hey Hondaman!

Reading/watching this owners' problems with interest. Your electronic ignition on my '74 CB550 doing well but your comment on his plug caps is interesting. Mine are the original factory NGK caps, but this bike only has about 5,000 miles on her. Should I replace my plug caps (all other ignition components are stock, sans your system) and why?  Sorry guys, not trying to hijack, just thinking getting clarification here might help this owner's problems.....

Offline NastyNip

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 11:53:39 AM »
I won't go into a complete list of things here, you can research it as it's been posted a million times.

Rule number numero uno around here is never trust what the PO tells you.  8)

First and foremost do a 3000 mile tune up. Check the condition of plugs while you're at it.

Second make sure your fuel is flowing to carbs freely.

If you still have trouble, then it might be time to get back into the carbs and/or then do a vac sync.

Usually when electronic ignitors go bad they go all the way, either they work or they don't.

Good luck.


Yep I never do, that's why I tore down the carbs :) It sounds like you're leaning towards it being a fuel issue, due to electronic ignition being either work/fail? Is there any adjustments I can do with electronic ignition, tests etc.? Sorry for my ignorance, this is my first bike with solid state ignition  :o


You also never mentioned if your running stock airbox and what type of a muffler system and if the jets in the carbs are stockers.

Sorry, stock airbox w/ paper element, stock 4-4 exhaust. When I pulled the jets they're all stock jetting as well. The only non-OEM modifications are outlined above.

Sounds more like a clutch slipping than electronic ignition issues. Perhaps carbs, as you described trying to "flick" the throttle. These older bikes prefer a rolled on action.

I'm 99% it's not a clutch issue; I've dealt with slipping before too, and this is different (there's an audible RPM change, sounding almost like a rev limiter); I feel full engagement when coming off the line, as well as this problem happens well between clutch actuation events. I also try to be cognizant about rolling on the throttle, and the problem manifests itself in a variety of acceleration scenarios.

You also never mentioned if your running stock airbox and what type of a muffler system and if the jets in the carbs are stockers.

And then, check the ohms of the plug caps. If they are 5000 ohm caps, then they must be within 800 ohms of each other on any one coil. If they are OEM caps, they are due for replacement, long ago.

If you have the "Green" 3-ohm coils along with that Dyna S, you have a [much] larger problem to fix... :(

This is great advice, I'll check the caps and report back. Forgive my ignorance, mechanicals-wise I'm pretty alright with these bikes, but when it comes to electrical I'm  :o -- just curious, what's the larger problem I would have if I had 3-ohm coils?

Are there any adjustments to be made with the timing/gap etc?

Geeze, I wish I could post a video for you guys, the best I could describe the symptoms is when you're riding in the rain and water gets into your points plate and starts messing up your timing, but to a lesser degree...  :P

Thanks for the help so far guys!
Cheers!

1974 CB550K
1978 CB550K

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 08:35:58 PM »
This is great advice, I'll check the caps and report back. Forgive my ignorance, mechanicals-wise I'm pretty alright with these bikes, but when it comes to electrical I'm  :o -- just curious, what's the larger problem I would have if I had 3-ohm coils?

Are there any adjustments to be made with the timing/gap etc?

Geeze, I wish I could post a video for you guys, the best I could describe the symptoms is when you're riding in the rain and water gets into your points plate and starts messing up your timing, but to a lesser degree...  :P

Thanks for the help so far guys!

Well, here's the 'rundown' I too often have to give on the smaller Fours with electronic ignitions:

The alternator is quite small (output) on those bikes, around 140 watts, typically. The OEM points-and coils, with the OEM lights (in 1972 versions of the bike), consume about (35w coils+45w headlight+24w taillight)= 104 watts.  To make things harder yet, in 1973 Honda elected to install front running lamps in the front turn signals (14 watts more) for pizzazz in sales, make them look cool. This change left the bike with a mere (140-124)=16 watts (1.3 amps) "excess" power to charge the battery, if you average together the typical commuter rider's RPM and time curves. The result: most of the 550 bikes require(d) a new battery every season because they never got fully charged, so sulfation then quickly set in. This has long been their history, too.

Along came Dyna with their electronic ignition that replaced points, but is also uses 1.2 (up to 1.5) amps of extra power. This leaves the bike with (1.3-1.2)= 0.1 amp to recharge the battery when running at 3500-5000 RPM, where most of us tend to ride. If you throw in a little corrosion on the old connectors here and there, you don't even make the typical 140 watts to begin with, so the bike is always in a poor electrical charge state. It will run, even might electric start once in a while, but always is low on power. If you have a Dyna ignition, this will never recover at all unless you downsize the headlight (use a 35/35w H4 headlight) and disconnect the front running lamps, among other ideas.

The OEM ignition coils in the bike were/are 4.3 ohms resistance (primary side), and if you have the Dyna 3-ohm coils, they use another 1.2 amps on top of all this, so the bike never charges up, even at redline engine speeds. Simply put, the current load is too much for the alternator. The things you then find are: the bike lives on a battery charger, getting taken out for short rides, and the electric start does not turn over the engine.

So, what's a guy to do?
Generally, removing the Dyna equipment is a help. Alternately, installing different parts can help some more. If the Dyna S is to stay, consider getting the Dyna matching 5 ohm coils: this reduces some of the losses. Also disconnect the front running lamps (this leaves the turn signals operational). Consider using a 35w/35w H4 halogen headlight, as this puts out about the same light as the stock Stanley 40/45w incandescent headlight did. Switch the taillight bulb to a #1034 instead of the #1157 there now, unless it is a stock Honda OEM lamp from before 2002 or so, which actually draws the current it is supposed to (Chinese-made ones draw MUCH more current than they are supposed to...).

The sparkplug caps: use an ohmmeter (Harbor Freight has one for $5 that works fine for this) and remove each cap, then measure the ohms between the little screw on the wire side and the socket that holds to the sparkplug: this should be in the range of 7500-8500 ohms (if original), and not more than 500 ohms different between the 1-4 caps and the 2-3 caps. If you need to replace them, use the NGK 5000 ohm caps sold at most bike shops, in the correct shape(s) to fit.

Remove the fuses (and disconnect the battery) and clean the fuseholder contacts to shiny gold again. If the fuseholder is melted and damaged, I offer a newer type that uses higher-efficiency (modern) ATC fuses, which are also more available today. Unplug and clean the contacts between the alternator and the rectifier (this is a white plug, under the gunk!), and then disconnect the Green wire Ground (usually at the coils, under the tank) and clean it and the bare spot on the frame it meets. Then do the same with the main ground, although this might take all of a Saturday...

In the end, this will prop it up pretty well.

If you have the 3-ohm coils and would like to keep them, I also offer a 2-ohm Resistor Pack you can add to them to make them 5 ohms instead. This still makes a 3x hotter spark than the stock coils did, although the Dyna S ensures it is a very SHORT duration spark: these engines like longer sparks if possible. This will make them idle better, start easier, and rev higher more quickly, as well as running cooler because of a more complete fuel burn.

;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Duanob

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 01:19:31 PM »
"If the Dyna S is to stay, consider getting the Dyna matching 5 ohm coils: this reduces some of the losses. "

That's what i did and haven't had any problems.

The 4000 RPM hesitation is pretty common in these bikes. The carbs have to be squeaky clean. I've had my carbs apart more than a few times before I finally nailed it. It runs like a top. One thing that i found is a rich running condition. I had everything set to OEM spec. What I finally found was after moving the needles around to different settings I found some crud on all four needles that would hold the needle up out of the needle jet (main jet emulsion tube) I cleaned them up and put everything back, resynced the carbs and voila! Finally got rid of that damn hesitation. I knew everything else in the carbs was perfect at that point. It's a very annoying at it usually starts just as you want to take off from cruising speed. BUT every spring I do find myself taking the bowls off and cleaning the pilot jets because they get clogged super easy. That causes a different type of hesitation. More off idle and lower RPMs <4000. Must be sitting over the winter then that first ride will know crud loose and down into the carbs.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:21:19 PM by Duanob »
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

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_- \_<,
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Offline NastyNip

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 11:06:19 PM »
Just an update: I measured the plug caps that they all checked out alright.

To add more info, the symptoms seem to be getting worse: the bike starts fine on the first crank and after a min or so of warming up, performs great until it starts really heating up--

After she's at operating temp (after about 10 min of city riding), it's really struggling throughout the whole RPM range, low power.

Does this indicate anything in particular? I'm really stumped now if it's electrical or fuel.
Cheers!

1974 CB550K
1978 CB550K

Offline NastyNip

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2014, 12:51:50 AM »
After doing some more digging around here, performance issues when heated seems to be pointing to either bad coils or a bad Dyna unit.

1: Is this hypothesis plausible?

2: Who makes good electronic ignition besides Dyna? Is Pamco still around?

3: A last resort, and I'd rather not, but if I have to go back to points, does anyone know of a new quality points plate source?
Cheers!

1974 CB550K
1978 CB550K

Offline ekpent

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2014, 05:41:03 AM »
Try this easy test the next time it begins to stumble badly. Shut the engine down and then check the heat on the four exhaust header pipes with either an infrared temp gun (cheap nowadays) or a wet rag with the sizzle test and compare.  What your looking for is a colder set of pipes like the 1-4 or 2-3 to see if your having a possible problem with ignition or coils or a single colder pipe that  may indicate a carb or other problem in that one cylinder.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 02:38:00 PM by ekpent »

Offline Oldtech

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 06:03:30 AM »
The problem getting worse as the bike warms up sure sounds like electrical/ignition.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 11:39:43 AM »
It is typical for Dynas to give problems when they heat up. It starts with small blips like a hesitation. After not too long they will drop a pair of cylinders when the bike is warmed up. The PO may not have been lying to you. PAMCO is still around.   
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Offline NastyNip

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2014, 02:58:55 PM »
Just wanted to say this forum is an incredible wealth of knowledge, even when digging back through the archives, and I hope that anyone in the future searching around finds this topic even a little bit useful  :)



Is there any means for you to post up some pics of your bike? Better yet, even a cell phone video? You indicate you have not tach, do you need one or do you prefer to run without one?

You stated you bought the bike form someone you trust, does he have any input or recollection of this "stumbling" while he owned it? Or was it sitting a while between being sold and bought by you? If so, very necessary to also check the fuel supply for debris that may be obstructing your carbs.

I know you said the carbs were cleaned, but can you provide some specifics about who/how/when they were cleaned? Did you remove and fully clean the emulsion tubes? Area the floats set properly?

I ran though the fuel system first, as it is easier (for me personally) to pragmatically diagnose than electronics (ex: inspect/clean inline filters, tank pickup, petcock, carb emulsion tubes, jets, slide needles) and I can say with confidence the parts are newer, with good seals, and are very clean.)


I'm now working on trying to diagnose if it's the coils, dyna ignition, or both. Two more questions for 50 points each! :)

1: I found how to test out coils in the FAQ (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=5752.msg8383#msg8383),

but I can't seem to find a procedure to test out the Dyna S itself. Anyone have any idea how to test it?

Also, since I'm having the problems when the motor is hot, do I have to run these tests during/right after a ride, or can they be ran when cool?

2: I'm looking at picking up the PAMCO ignition, and was debating between just getting the ignition and using the stock coils I have, or getting the package that comes with the "cool running coils increase the MPG by 5.20%" (http://www.allcyclesupply.com/product/ACS-31168).

Does anyone know what the resistance on these coils are? 3 or 5 ohms? I just want to make sure I don't induce any more drain on the poor charging system than it already has... :\

Cheers!

1974 CB550K
1978 CB550K

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2014, 10:50:54 PM »
Just wanted to say this forum is an incredible wealth of knowledge, even when digging back through the archives, and I hope that anyone in the future searching around finds this topic even a little bit useful  :)



Is there any means for you to post up some pics of your bike? Better yet, even a cell phone video? You indicate you have not tach, do you need one or do you prefer to run without one?

You stated you bought the bike form someone you trust, does he have any input or recollection of this "stumbling" while he owned it? Or was it sitting a while between being sold and bought by you? If so, very necessary to also check the fuel supply for debris that may be obstructing your carbs.

I know you said the carbs were cleaned, but can you provide some specifics about who/how/when they were cleaned? Did you remove and fully clean the emulsion tubes? Area the floats set properly?

I ran though the fuel system first, as it is easier (for me personally) to pragmatically diagnose than electronics (ex: inspect/clean inline filters, tank pickup, petcock, carb emulsion tubes, jets, slide needles) and I can say with confidence the parts are newer, with good seals, and are very clean.)


I'm now working on trying to diagnose if it's the coils, dyna ignition, or both. Two more questions for 50 points each! :)

1: I found how to test out coils in the FAQ (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=5752.msg8383#msg8383),

but I can't seem to find a procedure to test out the Dyna S itself. Anyone have any idea how to test it?

Also, since I'm having the problems when the motor is hot, do I have to run these tests during/right after a ride, or can they be ran when cool?

2: I'm looking at picking up the PAMCO ignition, and was debating between just getting the ignition and using the stock coils I have, or getting the package that comes with the "cool running coils increase the MPG by 5.20%" (http://www.allcyclesupply.com/product/ACS-31168).

Does anyone know what the resistance on these coils are? 3 or 5 ohms? I just want to make sure I don't induce any more drain on the poor charging system than it already has... :\



One of the problems that crops up with the Dyna S involves the gap spacing between the magnet (in the spinning advancer cam) and the pickups' face. These often get set unevenly if someone just plunks in the baseplate and tries to use Dyna's 'static timing' routine. In this regard, Dyna's instructions could be clearer?

Here's the skinny on it: the triggers themselves are Hall Effect electronic switches. In this type, they are turned ON all the time until the magnet passes close by: then they switch OFF while the magnet is within detection distance. When they switch OFF, it simulates the points opening, so the coil loses the current that was passing through, and its magnetic field collapses to produce the spark (much like points' actions).

Now, here's the tricky part: the field strength of the little magnet they use is not super strong. So, it must be set at a close distance to the trigger to make it switch ON. If it is TOO close, it will not switch ON, if too far away, it will not switch ON, and if not in the "optimal" distance, will switch on late or early, compared to where it should be set. There is a fairly narrow range where they operate correctly, but once set in this range, they usually do well.

When the Hall Effect devices heat up (with the engine) their characteristic changes slightly, making them act somewhat differently when the magnet comes near. If the gap is too small and the magnet comes too close, the switch turns ON sooner when hot, as compared to the cold setting, causing excessive timing advance. Vice-versa when the magnet is too far away: it will trigger, but it will be "late" and the timing will be retarded, or (more often) the spark will be weak. In both cases (too close or too far away), the undesired effect shows up better (i.e., more completely) when hot. It will act differently when cold, so setting it cold is problematic with Dyna S, and has been since they were introduced in the 1970s. Sadly, their instructions usually have you set them up cold.

So...early on, we learned to warm up then engines with the Dyna installed, THEN adjust them for timing using only a strobe timing light for best speed (those of you old enough to remember the old, slow orange neon timing lights know what I'm getting at, here...). And, the gaps between the L and R pickup MUST be the SAME, or one side will vary compared to the other as the engine goes through temperature changes.

The Dyna S has had 3 different "gap specs" that I am aware of: the earliest ones (with a blue PC board base) were .020"-.025" gaps. The later ones (with the PC-board base, but in tan or whitish color) were at first said to be .015"-.020", later were changed to be .020"-.030" spec. The latest versions that I know about are the ones with the large, metal-clad pickups with nylock nuts that hold them to the baseplate: the spec I have most often heard for these is .025" (no lo-hi range given).

If the gaps are not even, then the timing will also not be even. Sometimes you will see reports in the forums where someone finds they cannot adjust them (or maybe just one side) to slow down for idle, or else if they set it to idle position it will not reach full advance when revved up. In a few cases, this has been the fault of the little cam with the magnet, which got dirty, stuck, or made wrong, and it doesn't rotate like it should with the advancer unit. In most cases, it has been either incorrect gap(s), or a failing trigger(s) on the unit.

The most common outright failure mode we have observed for the last version (with the metal-clad triggers) has been where a trigger fails when hot. The failure is this: the device turns ON but refuses to turn OFF enough when the magnet passes by, so the spark is weak or non-existent during the "spark time". If you scan back through the last 5 years on these forums, this is the failure mode you will most find.

For the most part, the Dyna S has been a pretty good replacement for the casual rider of the SOHC4 bikes, if the rider was not overly concerned with the bike's performance. Above 6000 RPM, the spark duration is quite short because the OFF time of the trigger is less than the spark duration of the stock Honda coils (or the 5 ohm Dyna coils). This leads to slightly less HP at higher RPM as compared to points performance. On the 750, few riders notice this difference as that RPM is above most posted speed limits, but on the smaller bikes it has long been noticed. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2014, 06:32:30 AM »
Along with Hondamans excellent advise and description of the workings of a Dyna ignition, there is one more thing you can check..... You report that the bike starts on 'the first crank' and runs good until it fully heats up.  this actually may be 'the bike runs good until the battery reaches full charge '. When the bike is started with the electric start, the battery voltage drops and presents a 'load' on the charging system which holds the voltage produced by  the alternator/rectifier to say 13v.....after some time riding the battery achieves full charge and it's load is now minimal but the stock 40 yr. old regulator may not switch the now increasing voltage until the alt. is producing maybe 15v. This would not be a problem with points ign. but appears to cause the Dyna's to misfire or drop-out 2 cyls. This is reported by Z1 Ent. who sell a lot of Dyna ignitions and is usually complained as 'the bike misfires when it heats-up all the way after riding for a while '. The solution would be to install a solid state regulator/rectifier combo. Test would be to rig a voltmeter across the battery and tape it to the handlebars so you can see it while riding and observe the voltage when the bike starts to miss.......
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline goldarrow

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2014, 08:06:18 AM »
fuel flow issues??? starting from gas tank cap and fuel filter???
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Offline pamcopete

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2014, 05:02:08 PM »

2: I'm looking at picking up the PAMCO ignition, and was debating between just getting the ignition and using the stock coils I have, or getting the package that comes with the "cool running coils increase the MPG by 5.20%" (http://www.allcyclesupply.com/product/ACS-31168).

Does anyone know what the resistance on these coils are? 3 or 5 ohms? I just want to make sure I don't induce any more drain on the poor charging system than it already has... :\

Here is a explaination of the current draw of the "Ultimate" coil vs a stock coil and points system. The difference is that the PAMCO has a 120 degree dwell vs the stock points with a 180 degree dwell (or maybe even 190 degree dwell). The coil is only on and drawing current during the dwell period so the effective current load on the electrical system is the average current, not the peak current, so the difference in the dwell angle means that the PAMCO with the lower resistance coil actually draws less current than the stock points system.

Dwell angle

Stock coils 4.5 Ohm with 180 degree dwell = 12.5/4.5 * 50% = 1.38 Amps
17-6903 coils 2.8 Ohms with 120 degree dwell = 11.5/2.8 * 33% = 1.35 Amps

I use 11.5 volts for the PAMCO because there is a 1 volt drop across the transistor.

When calculating the current for a coil, you have to take into consideration the effect of the dwell angle because the coil is only on for that period. So, in the case of points with a 180 degree dwell angle the coil is only on for 180/360 = 50% of the time. Using the dwell angle on time gives you the average current flow to the coil which is the effective current flow as far as the charging system and battery is concerned.

During the time that the coil is on and drawing current, the stock coil draws 12.5/4.5 = 2.7 Amps. The 17-6903 coil draws 11.5/2.8 = 4.1 Amps so the magnetic field in the 17-6903 coil will be almost twice the magnetic field of the stock coil. However, the battery and charging system will only be affected by the average current, so you end up with a better spark with no impact on the charging system.

The PAMCO uses a 120 degree dwell angle so the coil is only on for 120/360 = 33% of the time. Some will jump in here and say that the shorter dwell angle of the PAMCO means that the coil output will not be as good as a 180 degree dwell but you have to take into consideration the fact that a electronic ignition system produces a faster rise time because it does not use a condenser. Test have shown that an electronic ignition system, not just the PAMCO will produce up to 50% higher voltage at the plugs than a points system driving the same coil, so you can reduce the dwell angle without sacrificing the spark voltage and end up with a more efficient ignition system and cooler running coils. This is true for any electronic ignition system, not just the PAMCO.



Offline Spanner 1

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2014, 06:01:36 PM »
So Pamco Pete, your coils offer a massive savings ( on a charging system ) of 0.03Amps and only that because of a 120 deg. angle vs. stock 180 deg. angle of the ignition system. I don't see the advantage at all. Statements of 'hotter spark' ( higher secondary coil voltage ) are very debatable and even if true are very difficult to prove as a performance advantage. Once the compressed fuel/air charge is burned by the coil secondary voltage ( spark ) no amount of 'extra' voltage will produce the slightest advantage , or are you claiming the charge burns faster too with a higher voltage spark ?... if so then there must be a measureable HP gain with the more 'efficient' electronic system, no ?
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Offline C5paul

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2014, 07:13:15 PM »
There is some fantastic information in here. I will offer a small piece of advice. When your bike warms up and begins acting up, pull over and test battery voltage, then test voltage at the coils. I've seen voltage losses via ignition/kill switch from corrosion that will not show up until the wires or switches get hot.

Run a test lead directly from your battery to the coil, bypassing both ignition and handlebar mounted shut off switches.
Just trying to see if there is voltage loss in the "path" from your battery to the coils.

Do not turn the coil on until you are ready to ride, so you don't cook them alive.

Best of luck with this...you have plenty of smart people trying to help!!


Offline BobbyR

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2014, 08:54:10 AM »
I have a quick diagnostic. When the bike is warmed up and begins to act up. Pull over and  pull a plug wire. If it doesn't get worse, you know what your problem is.  Dynas of a certain period crap out and dropping two cylinders is the main symptom..
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2015, 02:32:43 PM »
So Pamco Pete, your coils offer a massive savings ( on a charging system ) of 0.03Amps and only that because of a 120 deg. angle vs. stock 180 deg. angle of the ignition system. I don't see the advantage at all. Statements of 'hotter spark' ( higher secondary coil voltage ) are very debatable and even if true are very difficult to prove as a performance advantage. Once the compressed fuel/air charge is burned by the coil secondary voltage ( spark ) no amount of 'extra' voltage will produce the slightest advantage , or are you claiming the charge burns faster too with a higher voltage spark ?... if so then there must be a measureable HP gain with the more 'efficient' electronic system, no ?

I'm always interested in reading and trying to understand the complex topic of electronic ignition systems. HondaMan does an exemplary job of explaining in detail (without bias) the issues and challenges faced with the task of providing a simple spark at the correct time. PamcoPete also offers up good technical information to support his (and others) products that many of us wouldn't know so why is it that throwback Ludites fear modern technological advancements? It's wonderful to want to keep your 40 year old bike factory stock but many others wish to make performance improvements to their bikes. Is that a problem? Have you seen points and condensers used on motorcycles of the modern world lately?
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2015, 02:33:32 PM »
OP,

Have you found the cause of your hesitation yet?
You never see a motorcycle parked outside of a psychiatrist's office!

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Offline przjohn

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2015, 03:11:57 PM »
This has been an extremely interesting read for someone who has just finished a 400F resto and used the Dyna ignition. If the weather here ever warms up and I can put some miles on the bike I will be keeping a close watch on this. If it gives me any BS the points will be going back on.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550 is stumbling with electronic ignition?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2015, 04:10:24 PM »
This has been an extremely interesting read for someone who has just finished a 400F resto and used the Dyna ignition. If the weather here ever warms up and I can put some miles on the bike I will be keeping a close watch on this. If it gives me any BS the points will be going back on.
The 400F (and 350F) can benefit (if you have the OEM coils) from having some extra spark plug resistance: if you have the 5000 ohm caps, maybe also try using the resistor sparkplugs (DR8ES-L or XR24ES-U) for a little longer spark. It will say "thank you!" when you rap it up to the 9,000 RPM ranges.
;)
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