Author Topic: Lets talk custom exhausts  (Read 10340 times)

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Offline edwardmorris

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Lets talk custom exhausts
« on: December 12, 2014, 04:09:46 PM »
So let me set this straight, this is purely a tech discussion, an effort to learn more of the science involved in proper functioning of an exhaust system suited for our 750s. Please don't ask me why I want to do what I'm trying to do, or why it is bad to use anything that the factory didn't install on the bike. Only help if you can contribute something meaningful, or move along and find an oil thread to spew diatribe and chow down popcorn bags. I'm trying to figure out how these things work, so don't ask me for any scientific backings for any theories and such that I came across during my "research" on the subject which I will share below.

It all started when I decided to go with a beefed up custom build for my second bike, the K3. It will be getting a nice 836 upgrade with a ported head. What I'm trying to figure out is a good breathing set up for this. I'm keeping this discussion limited to the exhaust side as I don't want this to turn into another pods thread or a jetting debate. Obviously, aftermarket units are out of the question since I'm working towards building something unique.

From what I've read on the subject so far, for N/A engines

Low backpressure and high exhaust stream velocity can be achieved by running straight-through free-flowing mufflers and small pipe diameters.

This essentially reads drag pipes, but that's out of the question simply based on the noise factor. So, lets try and address the noise issue. For a straight through design, the most popular noise reduction option I've read about is using a perforated pipe wrapped with some kind of packing. Within this, there are two other options that present a trade off.

Perforations Vs Louvers

Perforations on a straight through design will not restrict the flow of the gases, but will end up being louder (even with packing). One way to make it quiet without restrictng the flow too much is to make it longer, but given the limitations on building this for a motorcycle, it won't help much.

Louvers on the other hand will restrict the flow a bit and somewhat "guide" both the gases and sound through the packing. This makes them quieter but will also start creating backpressure lending to reduction in torque?? (just going by what I read from googling, don't ask me to prove it Llyod ;D).

Pipe diameters

Small diameter pipes are good for low end RPMs but begin to choke on the high end, while larger ones will hurt torque on lower RPMs but do better at higher ones.


Essentially, you can design a perfect exhaust for a specific RPM range by picking the proper factors from above, and its very difficult to make one that is good across the range (I guess that's what the factory makes for stock engines??).


With all that theory I need help determining a few factors as best as one can do without actual metrics to back what's above. The goal is to come up with a nice looking custom exhaust (4-2) that is free flowing without a destructive noise signature. The whole point of asking this here (essentially without providing any real numbers) is simply due to the fact that there are more people here who have been around these machines for decades and basically know them so intricately, they hardly need manuals. Many here have used several different aftermarket exhausts and such so I'm hoping that with their experience, if I manage to get close enough to the goal, it will be a victory.


For my N/A, ported (S2), 836cc

The factory stock headers (that I plan to use) have an OD of 1-1/4", making the ID roughly 1-1/8" or so. I will update this post with their length when I get home this evening if it will help. Basically, they've been cut off at the rider foot pegs.

There will be two mufflers, each taking in two of the header pipes either via a Y join or a Y join to flange of the same dia as the perforated pipe. For the sake of simplicity, the bends are minimal (one, at 15Deg on each)).

Torque

First, I need to determine a good pipe size for the inner perforated pipe. This is essentially the straight through section that I need to finalize before applying the packing around them. Since the input to the muffler is from two ~1" header pipes, will a 2" pipe be a good choice? I know that only one header pipe will be pumping gas at a given instance into it, so I'm trying to make sure that this isn't too big or too small. 1-1/2 will definitely be too small for high RPMs, and anything over 2" will kill the low RPMs, at least that's what I'm concluding here, but CMIIW. (Anyone can really only guess at this point I think, but I hope the experience will be a guide.)

Noise

Length wise, the overall size of the muffler will be about 24" (6" straight from the Y join, then 18" up at a 15D angle) but the perforated section will only be the upticked 18" section of it. If the 2" is too large a dia, will using a louverd set up help the low RPMs while keeping it quiet, yet not kill the high RPMs due to the larger diameter. Or will a 1-3/4" dia pipe at this length with perforations be quiet enough and still have free flow?


Thoughts/Suggestions/More Theory/Anything useful, please share.

Offline Ravie

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 05:41:59 PM »
I don't know the answer to any of this, but I hope this thread picks up!  I'm interested in bein' learn-ed!
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Offline SOHC

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 11:23:08 PM »
The only thing i will add is that, never once have i seen or heard anything, car or motorcycle, thats high performance without a good loud exhaust note. :)

Seriously tho, for optimum flow, sound sacrifices will have to be made, to what extent tho, i personally do not know, never delved into exhaust science for the CB's.
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Offline WCJonesJr

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 04:22:13 AM »
Check out PipeMax header design software.

http://www.maxracesoftware.com/PIPE395.htm

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 04:59:55 AM »

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Re: Construction of 4 into 2 collector

« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 01:06:48 AM »


Quote

 

Well I beg to differ PJ.  Not only is the math right but so is the theory.  Pulsed or steady makes no difference to how exhaust volumes are calculated when it comes to pipe design.

Please note the 1.625" example I cited is nothing more than that, an example.   Had I flipped the example around to Peter's initial spec...
i.e. if collector ID = 42mm (1 5/8"), then that suggests header pipes are 30mm (1 3/16")  with a 90% expansion yielding approx 33mm (1 3/8")

My note was intended only to provide the math, but I can also describe some of the theory to help dispurse erroneous conclusions.

The theory is:
To determine the best diameter for a header pipe we look to the exhaust port and valve size for guidance.  Here is where the premise of exhaust gas speed, that you mention PJ, comes into play.  The theory is that as gases leave through the exhaust port, performance is theoretically improved by extracting these gases faster.  Many confuse this notion with the fact that a given volume of gas flows faster through a smaller diameter pipe than a larger diameter pipe under the same pressure and temperature.  They put these two facts together and wrongly conclude that performance is improved because gases flow faster through a smaller diameter pipe.

The correct interpretation is that in order for the engine to develop max power, exhaust gases must be held back while the exhaust port opens and the piston is still in the power stroke, then those gases can be pulled out quickly afterwards in the exhaust stroke.  The smaller diameter pipe does this by creating a "back pressure" condition to restrict gas flow at first.   Indeed it is not the entire pipe we are talking about - it is only the starting section of header pipe that is the length corresponding to the exhaust timing stroke.  To determine how much restriction is appropriate, we start by using the 90% golden rule.  i.e header pipe diameter should be not greater than 90% of the exhaust port size, (but not less than 75% of the exhaust port size as this creates too much back pressure).  The exact ratio is determined by other engine characteristics.  Within this range, engineers discover the optimal ratio for an engine mostly through trial and error.

The most modern of pipes bow to this concept and have a constriction in them at this specific point determined by exhaust timing.  The result is exhaust gas restriction to that point followed by rapid evacuation via the jet effect caused by the restriction.

Optimal header length is also a balance of; distance exhaust gases travel, speed of sound, and the rpm at which the engine reaches optimal power.  More specifically, header length is tuned to (a multiple of) the distance sound will travel at the rpm that is being tuned for, mostly at peak horsepower, at the operating temperature of the pipe.  Many modern pipes have a crossover at a point that optimizes the use of sound to improve restricting and scavenging exhaust gases. 

Another golden moment happens at the end of a balanced header pipe.  As the hot gases travel down the pipe, they cool and hence the amount of pressure is also reduced and with pressure comes speed and effective volume.  At the collector, the drop in pressure and therefore volume per time interval, is such that we can again safely reduce the pipe diameter to about 90%.  This reduction keeps the gases flowing rapidly without introducing further backpressure.

Many other factors are at play also, but those are for another discussion.  I've just outlined the basics on how to get from exhaust valve size to header diameter to collector outlet diameter - since that was the underlying topic of Peter's initial questions. 


« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 01:18:39 AM by Tower »


Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2014, 05:59:52 AM »
ya know, I dont want to get flamed for this, but having been in the automotive industry for 15 years, I can tell you Ive seen several different Honda Automobile header designs (and exhaust). Cheap, expensive, 4-2, 4-1, 4-2-1, and so on. I dont think any of them really out performed the other in a significant, measurable way. I've had 3 friends come in with 3 of the exact same car and power-train, and yet each had a different header (or exhaust / muffler. I think it was more of a personal opinion issue. I'm sure each one made power in different areas but we're talking a few horses with a 200hp engine to begin with. What can you expect from a 550 or 750? 1/2 a horse? Just get, or build whatever pleases you. If it was a 2-stroke, than a pipe would make all the difference.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 04:04:37 PM »
A good pipe will , with the correct tuning, give you more than 1/2 horsepower lost boy  ;). To the op, Straight drag pipes are useless on the road {no where near enough back pressure, and if thats what you are basing everything on I would start again. There a some good sources for motorcycle exhaust design and why the pipes are made the way they are, like header length and it's relationship to torque and revs, collector shape and so on. In the end it will be much cheaper to buy a good performance pipe, than try and make your own. There are a couple of good exhaust manufacturers in the USA that make pipes to a formula , not guesses, and to suit our bikes , they have the equipment to do the relevant testing and will, because of this, always make a superior product. I can understand you wanting to make your own but really, if you are after a good product and you want it to work properly, its far easier to buy something proven than to try and re-engineer something thats already been done, If you must do it yourself, maybe just copy something that already works..?.... ;)
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Offline Don R

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 04:53:15 PM »
The latest ideas include steps in the primary size, merge collectors with a cone in the middle and equal flow rather than equal length. If you try to calculate a design  be prepared with head flow numbers, volumetric efficency, compression, rpm, cam lift, valve size etc
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 06:20:08 PM »
OK, thanks for the replies fellas. Lets simplify it some more, I'm not wondering about the header pipe design for now, just the second half/muffler part. I'll be using the stock header pipes (from what I read, the old HM300 straight through pipes sufficed for the 836 with a mild-moderate cam).

I am NOT looking just to make straight through pipes, rather a balanced noise-torque free flow muffler. Doesn't have to be perfect, but at the very least good enough. Not chasing after several HP, neither looking for a mute exhaust, just something that works and looks good.

So it sounds like some turbulence/backpressure is needed for good street performance while the top end will still need the free flow to do well. I'm thinking that an 18" section of either 2" or 1-3/4" pipe with louvers might just do the trick. Its wide enough for when the engine is revving, and louvers will create turbulence regardless of the diameter for low-mid RPMs. The outer cone is 3" and everything in between is packing (stainless fibers of glass pack). For the 12"-14" the louvers travel, this should provide enough sound damping without hurting flow of gases (even if I go with perforations instead of louvers).

Lets hear some more from the experts :)

Offline 754

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2014, 07:27:54 PM »
 I am trying to get a buddy to work on making some high pipes.
But he has no sense of urgency.. I think there is a fair market for them in small quantity. 
It's a similar design to the Magnum Turbo headers. That I ran
 It's small primaries, which always felt like it made more midrange, and still seemed OK up top.

 I like the high pipes for 750 as the bike can then be lowered,  and have a whole different look.

 I can't see the value of running Yoshi style on the street, with the collector hanging down so far that it looks like it will hit speedbumps....for people that do not spent their time leaned over at extreme angles.
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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 08:49:31 PM »
I can't see the value of running Yoshi style on the street, with the collector hanging down so far that it looks like it will hit speedbumps....for people that do not spent their time leaned over at extreme angles.

We cater for both types here Frank.... ;D ;) :P
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2014, 07:36:23 AM »
Hi Ed,

While I do admire what you're trying to do, I have personal experience in making my own pipes with disastrous results. A far different bike, but the hundred hours of research, design, and construction efforts are similar. The problem is not ability - it is the lack of a Dynomometer and the option of making dozens of designs - then testing them to the fullest extent.

My views are these -
If you want your own exhaust regardless of performance - concentrate on fit, appearance, and sound and build it.
If you want the best performance and great sound and low noise, buy the Kerker with the 1" or 1.5" baffle.

The failed attempts story: I purchased the Two Stroke Tuners Guide by Gordon Jennings years ago. I also purchased different books on Two Stroke engines- all to study and understand the science and dynamics of Expansion Chambers, Reversion, and just how to maximize the unparalleled "Super Charging" effects of properly designed expansion chambers for my 1974 H2/Mach IV Street Killer project. This was my 8th Kawasaki triple build and would be my "Toy". I read, I studied, I calculated, I wrote programs in Excel to prove results, I ordered specially designed cones, and then made my own "Perfect" exhaust system - NOT. Without the ability to test my lengths, diameters, and reverse cone outlets spacing, I made pipes that peaked far before the RPM where my porting worked. With my "Gordon Pipes" i never saw anything close to the 161 horsepower that I'd paid the custom engine builder to make me.

After chasing and several adjustments over the course of 2 years, I had put a total of 36 miles on my H2. I finally commissioned a professional set of Hydroformed Expansion Chambers made from proven software and Dyno testing. All I had to do was fabricate my mounts and add my TZ750 silencer tips. The results were unbelievable. With the new (and correctly shaped pipes) the tire would boil in smoke anytime the RPM hit 6,500 and above. Even with all the best of intentions, hours of study and planning, and meticulous assembly, my pipes were garbage.

Just my $02. Gordon

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« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 07:38:21 AM by Ilbikes »
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 10:54:05 AM »
Hi Ed,

While I do admire what you're trying to do, I have personal experience in making my own pipes with disastrous results. A far different bike, but the hundred hours of research, design, and construction efforts are similar. The problem is not ability - it is the lack of a Dynomometer and the option of making dozens of designs - then testing them to the fullest extent.

My views are these -
If you want your own exhaust regardless of performance - concentrate on fit, appearance, and sound and build it.
If you want the best performance and great sound and low noise, buy the Kerker with the 1" or 1.5" baffle.

The failed attempts story: I purchased the Two Stroke Tuners Guide by Gordon Jennings years ago. I also purchased different books on Two Stroke engines- all to study and understand the science and dynamics of Expansion Chambers, Reversion, and just how to maximize the unparalleled "Super Charging" effects of properly designed expansion chambers for my 1974 H2/Mach IV Street Killer project. This was my 8th Kawasaki triple build and would be my "Toy". I read, I studied, I calculated, I wrote programs in Excel to prove results, I ordered specially designed cones, and then made my own "Perfect" exhaust system - NOT. Without the ability to test my lengths, diameters, and reverse cone outlets spacing, I made pipes that peaked far before the RPM where my porting worked. With my "Gordon Pipes" i never saw anything close to the 161 horsepower that I'd paid the custom engine builder to make me.

After chasing and several adjustments over the course of 2 years, I had put a total of 36 miles on my H2. I finally commissioned a professional set of Hydroformed Expansion Chambers made from proven software and Dyno testing. All I had to do was fabricate my mounts and add my TZ750 silencer tips. The results were unbelievable. With the new (and correctly shaped pipes) the tire would boil in smoke anytime the RPM hit 6,500 and above. Even with all the best of intentions, hours of study and planning, and meticulous assembly, my pipes were garbage.

Just my $02. Gordon

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This about says it all.

Too bad about the pipes Gordon......they were looking good!

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 11:34:03 AM »
Thats what i was trying to say, just not so eloquently put.. If i haven't said it before, Beautiful bike Gordon.. ;)
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 02:34:00 PM »
Gordon, thanks for sharing! My situation right now leans more towards your first view. Kerker will always be an excellent bolt on fall back, but for now I suppose I'm being greedy wanting the best of both noise and torque without it. At this point, with the specific goals I have for the project, I will be going the custom route. Which is why I'm not particularly after max performance, or min noise, just a happy medium.

A lot of people seem happy with wide open pipes like megaphone macs and jardines, the Yoshis, RCs, motogpwerks and the like. And I'm sure that these straight through ones work best at the high RPMs, but I haven't seen anyone complain much about their performance on the street. So I figured a free flowing design that is a bit more quiet (perforated tube with packing, no obstruction) will be nice to have, it can't get any worse than the above straight through ones unless some serious changes are made....right??

I guess what my dilemma has boiled down to at this time is what the diameter for the perforated pipe should be. I'm inclined to settle for 1-3/4" as middle ground. Not too large nor too restrictive. Perhaps perforations drilled at an angle will work as a good middle ground for perforation vs louvers factor. Or low height louvers, basically something just enough to get some backpressure. Without them, these should work similar to any of the above open pipes anyway.

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2014, 11:02:02 PM »
Gordon, thanks for sharing! My situation right now leans more towards your first view. Kerker will always be an excellent bolt on fall back, but for now I suppose I'm being greedy wanting the best of both noise and torque without it. At this point, with the specific goals I have for the project, I will be going the custom route. Which is why I'm not particularly after max performance, or min noise, just a happy medium.

A lot of people seem happy with wide open pipes like megaphone macs and jardines, the Yoshis, RCs, motogpwerks and the like. And I'm sure that these straight through ones work best at the high RPMs, but I haven't seen anyone complain much about their performance on the street. So I figured a free flowing design that is a bit more quiet (perforated tube with packing, no obstruction) will be nice to have, it can't get any worse than the above straight through ones unless some serious changes are made....right??

I guess what my dilemma has boiled down to at this time is what the diameter for the perforated pipe should be. I'm inclined to settle for 1-3/4" as middle ground. Not too large nor too restrictive. Perhaps perforations drilled at an angle will work as a good middle ground for perforation vs louvers factor. Or low height louvers, basically something just enough to get some backpressure. Without them, these should work similar to any of the above open pipes anyway.

Ed, most of those pipes you mentioned are baffled, not a lot of baffling but they are baffled, you can add glass wrap to them to quieten them a bit more or just buy a slightly more restrictive baffle.... I think you are over thinking it a bit.... ;)  Look at cone engineering for baffles...I made a baffle to slightly quieten a yoshi pipe on a 900 boldor Honda some time ago, it wasn't that hard as i was working in a machine shop at the time... ;)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2014, 12:54:27 AM »
G'Day Rafi, thanks for your PM, I have to agree with most of what's been said above, there are plenty of good options for a freer flowing pipe available, (except Mac's, they look like cheap schidt IMHO) so buying a good aftermarket pipe (even a used one) is probably going to save you some headaches.

Like you, around 100 years ago I attempted to make my own pipe for a CB750. It sounded good, it looked OK, but eventually I wanted a chrome pipe, so I replaced mine with a "Walker" 4 into 2, (with tuned length headers) and it actually felt so much better, and it was quiet.

Make your own pipe by all means mate, but unless you've got access to a Dyno, you'll never get the best out of it. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2014, 03:56:46 AM »
Truth be told 2 stroke engines are more sensitive to the exhaust than 4 strokes. 

Anyway, I hacked together a muffler for my second hand Mac headers.  The original megafon just fell apart one day  :)

For the first iteration I used perforated tube inside and nothing else and it was way too loud, so I created some kind of a perforated baffle and it quieted it down some.  Here are some pictures:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88103.125

But if I was after performance, I would never consider designing it myself, I know enough to leave that to experts.

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2014, 04:30:32 PM »
Rafi: thanks for inviting me to the discussion! :) One of my favorite topics, actually...

First, from above: Bwaller has it right on the $. Ilbikes proved it, too. (Beautiful bike, Gordon!). I have seldom had a dyno to use, except for a couple of summers in 1972-3 when a local truck shop had enough interested parties to let me in on Sundays to play. What I learned fit perfectly with a theory book on airplane exhausts I had been reading (from the Merlin Engineers of WWII, Britain). During those 2 summers I tested most of the then-available 4-1 and 4-2 pipes while trying to beat the "100 MPH wall" we had encountered with the K3/4. In the end of that, it was NOT the pipes that caused it, but that's a different topic.

Here's what I learned that may help you muse on: the exhaust flow MUST be in line with the intake valve size. Any other items chosen as the basis for the pipe size, length, backpressure, etc., with cause confusion, flat spots, or simply poor performance (Gordon: for Strokers, this is the total intake port size, adjusted downward according to crankcase pressures). The original 750 pipes were based on the intake valve, with even the final exit port still being the same diameter (minus the anti-finger bar across it).

The next most important thing is: the temperature of the exiting gases. As they get hotter, their pressure rises, because the cylinder's "dump" is a fixed volume and the exhaust valve size is fixed. So, this creates a "pulse" of exhaust pressure. If you leanout the fuel mixture a little bit, it cools off the exhaust: if you richen things up, it increases temps until the pipes (and valves) burn. That's where it gets thorny, if you don't have a Detroit V-8 feeding one pipe. You can either use the energy of this pulse to:
1. create a suction for the next exiting pulse (4-4 pipes)
2. time the pulse expansion via a spread in the pipe to cause a suction (4-2 pipes) for that next exhaust stroke
3. join the pulses (you got 4 here to work with) to create a suction over a wider RPM range (4-1 pipes)
4. tame the pulse, via baffling, so as to make the exhaust pressure (and suction) more even through the RPM range, while still creating a suction moment at the RPM range of interest (hint: this takes a late intake valve opening and an extended exhaust valve open duration, all else being equal - which we know as the "F" cam). This method tends to become more 'peaky' (at higher RPM, too) than any multi-pipe method. It also tends to make the engine overly sensitive to carb size and efficiency in the RPM range where the cam works (sound familiar to you "F" guys?).

So, what's a boy to do?

First thing: realize the length limitations of this bike, and consider using foldback baffling (like BMW pipes often do/did) if you have room for large "expansion chambers", relative to the exhaust volume. Or, consider a balancing pipe between the 2 "pair" of pipes to spread out the time duration of the pulse by dissipating it a little bit (not as efficient, but works over a wider RPM range).  Chances are, this pipe would block your oil pan's drain plug...

If you're doing 4-2, you've at least eliminated 2 other possibilities to struggle with: you have 1 chamber for a 90-degree Twin, because you probably won't make a complex crossover under the bike to get the 180-degree cam timing working for you: now, you're in Harley territory (i.e., 90-ish engine degrees (I know, Harley is even less...) between exhaust pulses, then nothing for 270 degrees). This gives the opportunity to let that 270 degrees duration get a long way down the pipe, with all that energy, to 'pull' on the next [exhaust] valve opening. But, unless you are making a Swordfish-piped Chopper, there isn't enough length behind you to make this pulse create suction above 4000 RPM. So, you've narrowed the variables a lot.

In the 836cc bore (9.81 cu. in.), the airflow past the intake valve at [normal] atmospheric pressure with the 5 BTC/35ABC cam and optimal lift (which is about .305") matches very closely the air volume in the pipe before the muffler * 2.5 (with the stock 31" long headers) headers. So, you have 2.5 engine cycles to consider, and they are stacked as 2-at-90-degrees apart and can be considered as 1 pulse above 4000-ish RPM. The next 270 degrees being quiet, the moving pulses will drop the pressure in the pipe until they are either slowed down or broken up. If the pulses enter a larger chamber, it should be tapered to support the cooling gases at about the same rate they ARE cooling, to maintain the suction: this is where dynos come into play, adjusting the tapers. If they simply exit the pipe (drag pipes), so does the suction. If they taper too slowly outward, the pulse pushes back toward the engine.

A diffuser as the first baffle is one way to spread out the RPM range where the suction remains, and this is EXACTLY where most commercially-available pipes fail us today (especially 4-1 pipes). After that barrier, the sound pulse can be used to help create additional low-pressure zones because the pulse front of the exhaust is lost. Honda used this to make the length of the HM300 pipes almost spot-on for 7000-7600 RPM use, with the sound pulse traveling the open section of those pipes up to the fiberglass diffuser, pulling suction out of the diffuser at the pipe's upward bend. (Those of you riding the sandcast bikes probably know the sense of "screaming" from the pipes at this RPM).

In the end, on these bikes, pipe length is everything, in a sense. The only guys who got this right, besides Honda on the K0-K1, was Dunstall, who upped Honda by several HP, while adding about 10 lbs to the bike. Their pipe length nearly doubled the path overall, inflicting deep enough suction at the exhaust valves that we had to richen up the needles (even the mainjets) in some of them to keep the engine cool. A few chopper riders I knew added Swordfish-length pipes on their Amen frames to accomplish this, too, and their 1000cc-equipped roadsters dominated anything they wished!

Now...if you're not going racing, you can probably ignore most of this stuff, and just make sure the mufflers start with a diffuser at the end of the header, have a significant tapered portion up to the first sound-breaking port (which can be up to 4 each 1/2" holes in a plate across the whole muffler) at about 20" from the header, and then figure out how to break up the crackle as it exits the muffler. Honda used a 19mm hole in a long pipe, which we know as "the plug" in the end of the HM341 pipes. By the time the energies reach this part, they aren't making much suction anymore, so it matters only a little, unless you make the pipes stick out as long as the Dunstalls, from the end of the bike. The 836 engine is going to peak at about 7000 RPM as the [stock] intake valve maxes out anyway, so it will feel much more like a Kawasaki 900, with its 7000-ish RPM redline, anyway.
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2014, 08:43:24 PM »
Mark, thanks for that detailed explanation! I'll have to read it over a couple times and I'm sure I'll have more follow up questions after.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2014, 08:57:22 PM »
Good info, HM.  One comment, though: the redline on my Z1 900 is 9K.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2014, 11:20:32 PM »
Good info, HM.  One comment, though: the redline on my Z1 900 is 9K.

Yes, they are. But, I'd ask: does the power stay 'till there, or does it roll off after about 7500? I still remember the Z1 'streeters' (street racers) who could take my K1 "back when" in 2-3-block runs would short-shift at less than redline to do it, and until I rode a few of them (years later) I never knew why. I think it may have something to do with the carb response (?) more than anything else (any ideas?), as on the track (with throttle held more open, longer) they were King if they could ride them straight.

IIRC, the later KZ650-4 had a nearly identical volumetric and cam profile with a 7500 tach, yet they were a challenge to the 750, too! (I like that particular Kawi, BTW...). :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 750cafe

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2014, 12:51:28 PM »
Is there anything more fun than riding? They are between your legs and are quiet when you turn them off.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2014, 01:19:52 PM »
IIRC, the later KZ650-4 had a nearly identical volumetric and cam profile with a 7500 tach, yet they were a challenge to the 750, too! (I like that particular Kawi, BTW...). :)

That's right Mark, the KZ650 could crap all over a CB750F, don't ask me how I know...............  :'(
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline Kingmambo

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Re: Lets talk custom exhausts
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2014, 02:04:18 PM »
I have a standard practice that any time I start to feel full of knowledge I come here and read a thread like this.  The knowledge and experience here is truly humbling and I learn much reading this stuff.
Kevin

2003 CBR1100XX     1973 CB750K     1975 CB550