Author Topic: Cam chain myth, true or false?  (Read 11348 times)

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Offline Bailgang

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Cam chain myth, true or false?
« on: December 17, 2014, 03:44:46 PM »
I was talking with my oldest brother not too long ago and he thinks I'm nuts for messing with older bikes especially a sohc cb750 mainly because he claims they threw cam chains left and right any time you hit 6k rpm or higher. Now I couldn't care less what he thinks of my passion for older bikes but his comment about the sohc cb750 throwing cam chains and tearing the block almost in half in the process made me got "HUH?" I've read where early racing 750's had issues with cam chains when held at sustained high rpm but I've never heard about it on our street bikes. Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I don't recall anyone here have that happen to them and definitely not on a regular basis as my brother claims. Now my oldest brother was around at the time the cb750 was introduced in 69 and he did work in a Kaw shop at that time and worked on a few cb750's too that happened to show up in the shop however he's by no means an expert on the subject nor is he an expert on all things Honda. 6k rpm is right when my 77 750F2 starts to pull hard and I've blown more than a few shifts that pegged my tach and I've never had an issue with the cam chain nor have I dropped a valve which F2's are supposedly prone to do.

My brother no doubt is prone to exaggerate but is there any truth to the cam chain issue that he claims in regards to street cb750's? And if so what did Honda do to address the issue?
Scott


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77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline MCRider

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 03:51:12 PM »
He's nuts, in a nice way. The failure rate was /is very low, even on high performance machines. I never saw or seen a failure on a streetbike, even one highly revved and abused.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 03:57:28 PM »
G'Day Scott, your brother is not entirely incorrect, there were a few times I can remember CB750's "dropping" cam chains, I never had it happen to me, but I've got a couple of engines here that were junked as the result of a cam chain breaking, and the resultant damage of pistons hitting valves.

Having said that, this usually only happened in extreme conditions, (missing gears at high RPM's, poor maintenance, camchain tensioners not adjusted/seized, replacement camchains not correctly installed etc) and I've gotta say that I've flogged my CB750's mercilessly at times, without ever breaking one. You've probably got more chance of getting hit by a bus. ;D   
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 04:30:28 PM »
I kind of figured it had more to do with 750's that were thoroughly thrashed at high rpm and or just simply poorly maintained but debates with my brother is often futile. I know Honda made subtle changes to the sohc 750 through it's production years but was never aware of any changes in design regarding the cam chain or tensioner.
Scott


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Offline ekpent

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 04:34:04 PM »
  Maybe he just got his chains confused. More than a few have thrown the drive chain over the years, myself included.

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 04:36:40 PM »
...tensioner blade and/or guide was lengthened at some point?  '72?, '73?   I beat the crap out of my 750's and have not seen any timing chain problems on mine or anyone else's


just saw Ekpent's post and would agree
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 04:59:41 PM »
Nope he specifically referred to the cam chain and how it would "rip the engine block in half from the cyl head on down". My oldest son owns a K3 and he about panicked when my brother said that especially when my brother said it would happen anytime you took it any higher than 6k rpm. Maybe he meant 16k rpm?  :o He had made the comment on FB and again when I met him for dinner a month ago, I just nodded my head and changed the subject.
Scott


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77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Gordon

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2014, 05:05:39 PM »
I don't think there's been a time in the last 10 years that I haven't gotten my 750 over 6K when I've been on it. 

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2014, 05:21:08 PM »
I don't think I've ever upshifted below 6k ;D
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Offline scottly

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 05:49:49 PM »
This is funny!!! How many times have you heard of a 750 block ripped in half? :o :o If these motors were so delicate, how could so many of them still be on the road? The start of the redline on Honda tachs is the maximum CONTINUOUS operating RPM. My motor hit 10K plus many times, after popping out of gear at full throttle, and the only RPM induced failure was a rocker-arm adjuster.  ;D
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 05:55:18 PM »
Anything mechanical can fail. I have seen 750 engines with broken cam chains, not many though. One warranty repair from it that I can remember hearing of.
It certainly does not "rip the engine block in half from the cyl head on down". It makes a mess of the head and a couple of pistons for sure. The engine stops making power, pistons smash into valves, and it stops turning. If it is really spinning fast, there's enough energy in the flywheel to break pistons apart or damage con rods. It would take some really bad luck to actually break a con rod and pop that through the case. The chain itself doesn't cause much damage, I suppose it could bunch up and jam but I haven't heard of that happening.
So I call BS on that story.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2014, 06:02:39 PM »
I don't think I've ever upshifted below 6k ;D

I do, but only when I'm leaving for work at 6am, and because I actually like most of the people in our new neighborhood.  As soon as I'm out on the main road, though, it's time to clear out those combustion chambers! 8)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2014, 10:13:06 PM »
Yep, as has been said above, the front cam chain tensioner was modified as the engine evolved, but I've never seen or even heard about cylinder blocks being ripped in half. I have seen a couple of cams broken in half (here) and I'm not sure what would cause that?

I've got the remains of an F2 engine here where the cam chain broke (presumably at high RPM) and lunched the top end of the engine, but I've no idea of what the circumstances were, it came with some engine parts I "inherited" from a friend a few years ago. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2014, 11:03:34 PM »
I don't think I've ever upshifted below 6k ;D

I do, but only when I'm leaving for work at 6am, and because I actually like most of the people in our new neighborhood.  As soon as I'm out on the main road, though, it's time to clear out those combustion chambers! 8)

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Offline Bailgang

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 01:53:49 AM »
If I have any concerns about the design of my 77 F2 it's the possibility of dropping a valve. I have a blown F2 engine setting under my work bench that came off a parts bike and it's demise was a dropped intake valve on the #1 cyl, it literally has no #1 piston anymore. When I went through the transmission on mine I figured I'd check out the trans on the junk F2 engine to see if there was anything usable or salvageable, unfortunately it became quite clear from the looks of the gears that some PO had beat the living daylights out of the engine therefore giving it all the excuse in the world to drop a valve. With the condition of the dogs on the gears it was clear that it had blown more than just few shifts in it's life time.
Scott


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77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 01:59:54 AM »
Yep, a sweet running well maintained F2 is a joy to ride, but a poorly maintained F2 is a hand grenade just waiting to go off........... ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline bryanj

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2014, 12:12:39 AM »
The first Daytona 750 were rumoured to have cam chains that would not have run any further at the end of the race but I also have never seen a broken 750 camchain
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 01:13:02 AM »
Stronger cam chain is one way to feel safer.
TSUBAKI BF05M-94  sold everywhere.
Here is one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TSUBAKI-BF05M-94-CB350-SL350-XL250-CB750-CAM-CHAIN-TIMING-94-PIN-LINK-/251726993840

I have also read about missing gear, quick over rev making the sloppy cam chain tensioner adjuster spring let the chain to jump a cog or 2 causing valve salad. APE stiff adjuster without spring avoid that.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-APE-HT750-R-MANUAL-TIMING-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-EARLY-CB750-SOHC-ADJUSTER-/231422061581?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item35e1d46c0d

Maybe extra important when the engine has lightened crank and engine can rev up very quick?
Or is it  when releasing throttle when gearing on high revs?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 01:25:47 AM by PeWe »
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 01:56:07 AM »
valve salad?more like puree?

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2014, 02:08:36 AM »
Stronger cam chain is one way to feel safer.
TSUBAKI BF05M-94  sold everywhere.
Here is one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TSUBAKI-BF05M-94-CB350-SL350-XL250-CB750-CAM-CHAIN-TIMING-94-PIN-LINK-/251726993840

I have also read about missing gear, quick over rev making the sloppy cam chain tensioner adjuster spring let the chain to jump a cog or 2 causing valve salad. APE stiff adjuster without spring avoid that.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-APE-HT750-R-MANUAL-TIMING-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-EARLY-CB750-SOHC-ADJUSTER-/231422061581?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item35e1d46c0d

Maybe extra important when the engine has lightened crank and engine can rev up very quick?
Or is it  when releasing throttle when gearing on high revs?

Good points PeWe. This time last year I had the F2 engine apart mainly to address a transmission issue, it had a bad bearing on the main shaft causing a vibration at 5k rpm regardless of what gear it was in. I replaced all of the roller bearings in the trans including the needle bearings in the primary sprocket/gear and that took care of the vibration, while it was apart though I did replace the timing chain with the Tsubaki one you mentioned as well as the primary chain just for safe measure because I wanted to get it right the first time or should I say get it right as much as my budget would allow so I wouldn't have to take it apart again. I re-ringed the pistons of course but one of the biggest improvements in how the engine runs now besides replacing the tran bearings was rebuilding the cyl head with new valves and guides, the original exhaust vale guides were totally shot. Unfortunately though it's going to have to come apart again to address another trans issue because now it wants to pop out of 4th gear when under hard acceleration from time to time. The dogs on all the gears looked in good shape but I have a bad feeling that when I had the trans in the junk F2 engine apart some of it's shims got mixed up with the ones that came from the good engine, I've read another thread of someones trans popping out of 4th gear and it sounded exactly like what my trans is doing and Hondaman made a comment in the thread about the shims. Ideally I'd like to have all the gears back cut but my budget dictates that will have to wait for another day.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline PeWe

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 02:50:58 AM »
Bad luck to open the crank cases again.

But it might be possible to open the lower case only and remove the gear axes.
No need of lifting head, cylinder with some $ for gaskets only and eventual need of honing the bores.....

Pull engine out of frame is booooring. Soo much things to remove before....
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 10:48:00 AM »
Bad luck to open the crank cases again.

But it might be possible to open the lower case only and remove the gear axes.
No need of lifting head, cylinder with some $ for gaskets only and eventual need of honing the bores.....

Pull engine out of frame is booooring. Soo much things to remove before....

That's the plan and I agree that separating the case halves isn't near as tedious as getting everything else off the bike just to pull the engine. I do have 754's frame kit installed and that definitely makes wrestling the engine out of the frame so much easier. What I need to do more than anything before I so much as remove the first bolt from the bike is clean up my work bench so no stray parts from other engines I have get mixed up with it.
Scott


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77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2014, 12:21:45 PM »
The 'cam chain myth' came about when the results of the Daytona bikes' failures were revealed in late 1970, after Honda won it. The truth of this design is: above about 7500 RPM, if held there for a long time (like a Daytona oval), the stock (rubber) idler wheels in the cam chain tensioner assembly can become chunked out by the impact of the chain hitting the rubber, at least on the early rubber formulations. As the rubber improved, so did this problem. Once the damage starts, the bits of rubber could get jammed into the spaces between the rollers and the pins of the chain, blocking out the oil. Then they would fail after a while for lack of lubrication, as the pins would wear thin and break.

In racing, one of the very first 'fixes' was to use a steel roller instead. Later this gave way to hard nylon rollers. In production bikes, circa 1976, Honda issued the --410-- series cam chain, which has both thicker pins and harder rollers with larger oil clearances inside, a miniature copy of the Diamond XDL drive chain that was/is uber-successful on this bike.

In all the years of working on these engines, I have yet to see a cam chain that "failed". I have seen a couple that were rusted so badly from sitting & then being started back up, that they tore up the sprockets and tensioners, which then led to their demise from the same mechanism as the Daytona racers: lack of lube. I have seen one (just one) that failed due to use of Pennzoil, which waxed the links closed like Pennzoil often does in short-haul driving, again causing lack-of-lube failure (Pennzoil/Quaker State can do this with timing chains in older Detroit engines, too). I have seen a couple where the chain broke because the rider missed a shift so badly that it buried the valves in the pistons, sorely overloading the cam to where it twisted, poor little chain gave its all.

But, in a normally-ridden engine with regular oil changes, cam chain adjusted once in a while to reduce the slack, and touring at speeds up to 100+ MPH on a regular basis (even mine), the chains do not wear out, nor break, as their load is barely 90 PSI at 8000 RPM. Someone has to break them, and it is not easy to do! Mine went 90k miles since it's last change, and it meets the Honda spec for about 55% "worn", so I changed it last summer when I rebuilt everything else.

Mostly, the (jealous) rumor-mongers started this to slander the enormous success of the 750. Kawi KZ riders used to sneer at the Honda's "reliability problem", but the Kawis spend a LOT more time in the shop being repaired or freshened up in comparison. Suzy was a little better, but no one (except possibly the pre-1973 BMW R60) holds a candle to the 750 SOHC4 reliability, not even Honda's Gold Wing.
;)
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2014, 01:40:28 PM »
T but no one (except possibly the pre-1973 BMW R60) holds a candle to the 750 SOHC4 reliability, not even Honda's Gold Wing.
;)

I can second that, and will even throw cars into the mix.  I've never had a car go as far as my 750F has without having to replace an alternator, starter, water pump or something like that.  The only engine related components I've replaced on the 750's engine were the neutral switch, cam holder seals, and three sets of needle/jet sets.
Greg
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Cam chain myth, true or false?
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2014, 02:59:42 PM »

Mostly, the (jealous) rumor-mongers started this to slander the enormous success of the 750. Kawi KZ riders used to sneer at the Honda's "reliability problem", but the Kawis spend a LOT more time in the shop being repaired or freshened up in comparison. Suzy was a little better, but no one (except possibly the pre-1973 BMW R60) holds a candle to the 750 SOHC4 reliability, not even Honda's Gold Wing.
;)

Ha ha, while I'm obviously a CB750 fan Mark, I'm struggling to believe that the Kawasaki KZ or Suzuki GS riders would be in any way jealous of CB750's.

I've owned both and done many thousands of miles on them, and I can't think of any "weak points" with their engines, and of course they were so successful on the road and at the track, that Kawasaki and Suzuki dominated the Sportsbike market for many years afterwards.

The truth is, by 1973, the mighty Z1 had eclipsed the CB750, and it took Honda many years to recover, in the showroom, and at the track. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)