Topic: Terrorist attack in Paris

[Bob Wessner]

vfour,

Can you help me understand what seems to me to be a paradox with respect to French reactions? I am asking this to understand, not judge. On the one hand there seems to be vast support for the publication's right to publish what they do. They would be equally supported to do so here in the U.S. On the other, there are strong laws in France (and elsewhere in Europe) that ban "hate speech." We have folks here who engage in such speech, but we rely more on social support, or lack thereof to limit the influence of such groups. As I understand it, someone was just arrested and jailed in France for espousing support for the terrorist act, as disgraceful as it was. Given that Charlie Hebdo typically produced 60,000 copies of their magazine, in a country the size of France and a city the size of Paris, this is a small publication so it seems it had little widespread support for what it was doing. How do we reconcile this here in the U.S? Again, this is to understand, not to judge.

[calj737]

If I may Bob, there is a difference between free speech and advocating violence. Perhaps the arrestee was doing more than expressing his right to free speech and espousing continued acts. That would most certainly be considered a breach of the protection of free speech. I don't know the circumstances of who/what/why the arrest was made, but it may also result in a dismissed conviction. Perhaps a precaution more than a prosecution?

There is no rational remedy to addressing the violence of terrorists motivated by an ideology. Mostly because there is not a single, specific target. Absent of x-Ray glasses allowing a look into the mind and heart of an evildoer in advance, how would you ever identify the perpetrator before their heinous act?

[Bob Wessner]

.. there is a difference between free speech and advocating violence. Perhaps the arrestee was doing more than expressing his right to free speech and espousing continued acts.

Couldn't agree more. However, in the case I have in mind, the details seem sketchy in terms of actually advocating more violence, not sure though.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/14/377201227/controversial-french-comedian-arrested-over-facebook-post-on-paris-attacks

[faux fiddy]

I saw an interesting comment on a UK forum regarding the reprinting of Charlie Hebdo cartoons. The contributor reckoned it was good to reprint them "but not the more offensive ones". What does that mean ? That is one person's take on censorship. Freedom of speech and expression is all or it is nothing, IMHO.


Kev

The Clash couldn't have put it any better, provided you don't actually try it.

Fundamentalists don't allow it.

[demon78]

As a Comment yes christian prayers have stopped in Ontario schools about 25-30 years ago because of a challenge by a  jew, muslim, and atheist there also may have been a christian thrown in as well to a school board so it's not news and it was for mandatory opening prayers as far as muslim prayers in school go it's in a "multi faith" room which means every one gets a shot at prayers. Mandatory prayers are out for everyone.
Bill the demon.

[demon78]

Bob I'm pretty sure that he actively uses hate in his act I seem to remember something from a while a go and it was pretty nasty. According to the Beeb he's being investigated because he mocked the beheading of an US journalist by ISIS some people didn't think that was as funny as it might have been.
Bill the demon.

[simon#42]

.. there is a difference between free speech and advocating violence. Perhaps the arrestee was doing more than expressing his right to free speech and espousing continued acts.

Couldn't agree more. However, in the case I have in mind, the details seem sketchy in terms of actually advocating more violence, not sure though.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/14/377201227/controversial-french-comedian-arrested-over-facebook-post-on-paris-attacks

he is not a popular figure with the french authorities on a good day , with the mood as it is now in france i can see how his humour would be particularly offensive .

we had a case here last year with a premiership footballer nicolas anelka being banned from playing for making his quenelle gesture which was deemed anti semitic .

[calj737]

.. there is a difference between free speech and advocating violence. Perhaps the arrestee was doing more than expressing his right to free speech and espousing continued acts.

Couldn't agree more. However, in the case I have in mind, the details seem sketchy in terms of actually advocating more violence, not sure though.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/14/377201227/controversial-french-comedian-arrested-over-facebook-post-on-paris-attacks

I agree, there does not seem to be any reasonable espousal. He is a controversial figure, and as was written elsewhere, is often the wrong side of the intolerant PC. I equate him to Farrakhan hre in the US. Wonder how long he'd last in Europe?

[Maurice]

A bit of background: that comedian is being harassed because he's openly anti-semite. France has a strong past with it, for example holocaust denial is illegal (and is so in most European countries). There was also "collaboration" with the Nazis during WWII, something they'd like to atone for.

There is this fine line, and then there's context, history, etc.

What I dread most is the resurgence of the far-right. These events are giving them a huge boost.

[Bob Wessner]

I've heard of the holocaust denial laws, but it is hard to legislate against ignorance.

[Maurice]

It is no excuse.

[Bob Wessner]

Maurice, I was referring to ignorance in relation to the holocaust, not the laws. 

[Maurice]

Sorry. When you grow up in Europe it is really hard to deny it, it takes real effort. I guess it's in the same vein as the moon landings, blew my mind when I found out people thought they were fake. Hopeless...

[BobbyR]

I've heard of the holocaust denial laws, but it is hard to legislate against ignorance.

Bob,

It is hard to understand because you are an American. We have our Holocaust deniers but it means less here since it did not happen around here.

   

[demon78]

Because I of that age there were people in the squadron who had (toured)? been through the camps and were more than able to convince you that it happened I think there are more deniers now than there were.
Bill the demon.

[Markcb750]

I read the Pope is stating that there are limits to free speech, After stating that there must be free speech he added the qualifier . You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

By framing his statement in this way he is clearly placing part of the blame on the magazine. In fact he must take this position to protect his own.  He truly is firing the same gun the terrorists use to fire their own passions.

 

Trial and error continues, it seems we humans run the same trial for eons with the same negative result.   Lets hope we find an answer before too many more lose their lives.

[simon#42]

A bit of background: that comedian is being harassed because he's openly anti-semite. France has a strong past with it, for example holocaust denial is illegal (and is so in most European countries). There was also "collaboration" with the Nazis during WWII, something they'd like to atone for.

There is this fine line, and then there's context, history, etc.

What I dread most is the resurgence of the far-right. These events are giving them a huge boost.

yes the far right are having a field day at the moment , they will protect us from the muslims just like hitler protected the germans from the jews .
luckily we all have much better access to information these days and with luck wont be fooled as easy
the enemy of our enemy is not always our friend .

[750cafe]

Here is a long list of some of the good things that this religion of peace has done around the world to make it a better place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

We should all love them equally in return.   

[vfourfreak]

A few anti terrorist actions have taken place in Belgium in the past 2 hours. Inital reports suggest two dead, not among the police.

Is there no end ?

Kev

[demon78]

Of course not Kev the pendulum hasn't swung far enough yet. By the way I like the mayor of Rotterdam's take on it folks, that should work for all fundamentalists
Bill the demon.

[calj737]

I read the Pope is stating that there are limits to free speech, After stating that there must be free speech he added the qualifier . You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

By framing his statement in this way he is clearly placing part of the blame on the magazine. In fact he must take this position to protect his own.  He truly is firing the same gun the terrorists use to fire their own passions.

This is not what he said, you have paraphrased his comment from an excerpt. His statement was that Freedom of Speech is a human right and should not be infringed. Yet, we must be responsible with our words, and we should not provoke others with our free speech. And, it is never appropriate to ridicule another for their beliefs.

This entire statement from him is about tolerance and respect. That terrorists have neither, and that all people should refrain from ridicule when it comes to beliefs, whatever they are.

[Markcb750]

He said what he said  freedom of speech is OK as long as your freedom does not point out the problems with any religion.  The rest of it is boiler plate.


The Pope's statement is just the sternest he can pronounce because the West has seen that it's religious leaders might not really have unique insight into truth.  Perhaps Islam will learn the same lesson.

[calj737]

What is true is that you are, as I stated, clearly misquoting and drawing what conclusions server your opinion. Here are his exact words:

(Reuters) - Pope Francis, speaking of last week's deadly attacks by Islamist militants in Paris, has defended freedom of expression, but said it was wrong to provoke others by insulting their religion and that one could "expect" a reaction to such abuse.

"You can't provoke, you can't insult the faith of others, you can't make fun of faith..."

"I think both freedom of religion and freedom of expression are both fundamental human rights," he said, adding that he was talking specifically about the Paris killings.

"Everyone has not only the freedom and the right but the obligation to say what he thinks for the common good ... we have the right to have this freedom openly without offending," he said.

To illustrate his point, he turned to an aide and said: "It is true that you must not react violently, but although we are good friends if (he) says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch, it's normal."

"You can't make a toy out of the religions of others," he added. "These people provoke and then (something can happen). In freedom of expression there are limits."

Referring to past religious wars, such as the Crusades sanctioned by the Catholic Church against Islam, the Pope said:

"Let's consider our own history. How many wars of religion have we had? Even we were sinners but you can't kill in the name of God. That is an aberration."

His entire point is very akin to American laws that protect freedom of speech in that you can not enter a crowded public place and scream "Fire!". This is a limit of free speech asit serves no common good and can not justificably be an "opinion".

And nowhere in his statements does he intimate that C/H has culpability to the actions of evildoers. His entire statement is, as I said, about respect and tolerance for differing points of view. Words to live by-

[Markcb750]

If we are to accept religion as a protected class of communication what is it to stop a government from declaring their "beliefs" as sacrosanct?

Free speech is, or it isn’t.  To declare some speech as beyond criticism is to start down the road to the Kings  & Commies.   

The Popes a nice guy, he seems to understand humans a little better than his predecessors, but he should not get away with this statement which blames the journalist for the attack.

[Killer Canary]

Less pride and arrogance and more reason all around would make all of this go away.