Author Topic: jetting and compression question  (Read 4479 times)

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Offline 01Thomas

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jetting and compression question
« on: July 20, 2015, 01:59:01 PM »
Hi
Just a generic question: we know that increasing the compression in an engine will increase the engines' performance, up to a point (practicality and diminishing returns).

Assuming everything else is left untouched and aside from pinking and detonation and other (mechanical) issues, what effect will raising the compression have on the carb jetting to ensure an optimal mixture?

Does a higher compression result in better, more efficient combustion, thereby requiring the mixture to be made leaner?

regards
Thomas
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline PeWe

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2015, 02:18:09 PM »
I could not resist to search when I thought I almost knew...  "compression ratio vs air/fuel ratio"
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/compression-ratio-fuel-economy.htm
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline calj737

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2015, 02:46:03 PM »
It has always been positioned to me that one has little to do with the other. The carb settings control the mixture of the fuel, and compression doesn't care about that. What does matter, is the volume of air you shove into the motor as a result of the compression increase to achieve performance benefits. That has an effect in the carb settings by virtue of needing to tree more air and fuel, in effect jetting changes.

If you kept the same volume of air, but compressed it at a higher ratio only, you need only insure the quality of the fuel is appropriate for the compression ratio.

Or so I've been told...
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Offline PeWe

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2015, 03:14:11 AM »
I got pinging on very low throttle lift due to lean pilot circuit. Richer jetting - no pinging.
(Have got it due to lean main jets too)
Higher CR will probably give more power out of the fuel. More bang for the buck. My experience is higher CR is more sensitive for lean carbs. I have RC 836 pistons (CR 10.5:1) with holes as a reminder.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2015, 05:57:03 AM »
if A/F ratio was spot on already, then higher CR shouldnt require jetting changes, maybe a little richer if you were lean to begin with as PW says.
what is totally missing from your evaluation is the squish area treatment. if you just raise CR the old skool way of just bumping the crown in the center, very likely the engine will make more power but it will also be very prone to detonation due to low octane fuel. if instead you raise the CR smartly by building large squish areas, not only efficiency will be better, you will get quicker burning and lower operating temps due to the turbulence in the CC. 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 08:29:21 AM by turboguzzi »

Offline MRieck

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2015, 06:15:53 AM »
TG was talking before about the use of flattop pistons or those with squish bands built into the OD of the piston. I don't have any problems with "pinking" with 71.25mm pistons and approx. 10.2 CR. The chamber is small with a nice squish band....the charge is really concentrated towards the center of the chamber on the compression stroke. Another benefit to that bore size and flat top piston is great deshrouding on the intake side.
 Large chambers and domed pistons play havoc with charge. More fuel will more than likely be necessary to prevent the lean situation PeWe talked about. It also helps with cooling in an air cooled engine.
 Look at modern engines.....small, compact chambers, small valve angles and flat pistons, liquid cooling and CR's around 13.5 for some bikes.
 Compression is good and works in conjunction with a cam so you can have good torque and good horsepower......you just have to know it works together.
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Offline 01Thomas

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2015, 02:15:24 PM »
Thanks, this makes perfect sense.

It has always been positioned to me that one has little to do with the other. The carb settings control the mixture of the fuel, and compression doesn't care about that. What does matter, is the volume of air you shove into the motor as a result of the compression increase to achieve performance benefits. That has an effect in the carb settings by virtue of needing to tree more air and fuel, in effect jetting changes.

If you kept the same volume of air, but compressed it at a higher ratio only, you need only insure the quality of the fuel is appropriate for the compression ratio.

Or so I've been told...
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline 01Thomas

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Re: jetting and compression question
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2015, 02:19:40 PM »
Thanks for the link, PeWe

I could not resist to search when I thought I almost knew...  "compression ratio vs air/fuel ratio"
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/compression-ratio-fuel-economy.htm

1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98